Mark,
I appreciate your candor and I am definitely thick skinned. I hope you find my response as balanced in perspective as my previous postings. Here are the specific answers to your questions. Also I have pasted a piece on how people buy tractors and how it effects quality to the end user, I refer to the types of tractors several times. It also has questions buyers should ask dealers.
I have pasted your questions in with a response to each.
<font color="blue"> First I will say that several have purchased a reconditioned unit, are happy and defend their tractor and dealer admirably. But many have also related to their nightmare stories about ordering parts for their particular model number, receiving the correct parts only to find nothing fits properly and items have been substituted for OEM parts on their unit
</font>
<font color="black"> These people are pushing a bad product and it does everyone a disservice. All reconditioned tractors should be right by year and type. The only thing I have seen is a substituted/updated alternator (Hitachi or other OEM) like you would buy from Napa or Advanced. I have never had a parts miss-match or any problems with component/internal engine parts. I am sure there are problems out there as evidence in the forum. I have also heard about similar problems with US recons constructed from grade #3 “smoking Joes”. (I put all the types of tractors you can buy from Japan at the bottom.) If I received a tractor like that I would take it back to the dealer and get my money back. I would make it his problem. </font> <font color="black"> </font>
<font color="blue"> To add fuel to that fire, there were many E-Bay sales that consisted of a box blade, rotary cutter, 16 foot trailer and a Tractor for little more than what a reasonably priced YM model retails used (imported from Japan). </font>
<font color="black"> I have never used e-bay to market my tractors. There are too many scammers out there now and I don’t wat to be confused with any of them. Please understand I do know good companies use e-bay but there are as many scam buyers as dealer and I have always stayed clear of it. I am not sure how they are doing there pricing. Chances are it was a #1 grade import that was painted like a new tractor overseas. The only way dealers “give away” or sell attachments really cheap is by buying on credit so they move volume or buying a whole bunch of implement with cash and get another 5-8% discount. The programs for the big companies in implements allow up to a 6-month float before the invoice is due depending on the dealers credit and what time of year they buy. Payment is made when the implement sells. If they are running toward the end of there credit and don’t have the cash… they mark things down and they throw them in as part of a package at a low margin. I have never entered the trailer market so I really can’t comment how that works but I imagine it is set up the same way. Ultimately, if sounds too good to be true, it probably is. </font>
<font color="blue"> I am not judging your tractors, supplier or your quality assurance standards, but from the outside looking in.....You state that 2 out of three factories have problems with QA. Many would interperpet that to mean: One in three tractors imported from S.E. Asia is good....OR 2 out of three have problems. </font>
<font color="black"> I need to be careful. I was generalizing too much here myself and apologize. Two out of three are not bad tractors. I can only say that during my research, I found one factory with consistent quality in the rebuild process. I have heard 2nd hand about the others through people calling me for help and my contacts who work directly with the factory in Vietnam. I have not bought large quantities of tractors from each of the other factories to really know with certainty what there true quality is. The finishing process here in the states can be a challenge and warrants good dealer QA. The guys in Vietnam do a great job and the engine and transmissions have been consistently really strong.</font>
<font color="blue"> I ask respectfully, are your standards including the rebuild - reconditioning processes automatically factored in to the retail price? </font>
<font color="black"> Yes. The tractors are more expensive wholesale than the used tractors. I mentioned before that I plan on adding some used one next year just to meet some lower price points in my market. Most dealers work on a similar margin. There will always be some that mark them up to see what they can get. At the wholesale level my experience is that these recons are consistently more expensive. However, a dealer in a bind may sell at a lower margin, especially is another shipment is coming in and he is behind on cash flow, no different than any other business. The labor is really cheap over there. The tractors I receive run like a good rebuilt I get from my local machine shop. The main difference is that they look a lot better as the paint looks great. That is the competitive advantage in Vietnam is the cost of labor for now (China may put them out of business long term since their pay scale is peanuts comparatively). I had a client and his independent diesel mechanic of 30 years open up the rear end on an FX22, and he was amazed at the quality of each part as he stripped it down. (Before someone makes this an issue with recons, there was serious user error problem and there were many lessons learned a lot about what not to do when you get an attachment stuck, either wya I supported him as a good ealer should) I am tempted to invite a bunch of folks over and have YM2000 tear down, proof of quality event. My only fear is that tractor would look great and no one would stay to help me put it back together. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif</font>
<font color="blue"> If I were to purchase a YM1610D from you, would it cost more due to all the additional items replaced, rebuilt and repainted as compared to the same tractor from a dealer (here on TBN)?</font>
<font color="black"> Great question but a little loaded. Yes, it should. At the wholesale level, my tractors do cost more than a used #1 at least form the quotes I am getting oin mixed containers. I have found that prices up the North East tend to be higher all around. I ship that way through referrals although I don’t advertise up there. You will also find that most of the time a #1 tractor will almost always cost more than a #2. Of course there are some expections. </font>
<font color="blue"> In your professional opinion, is the reconditioned tractor better than a good used one? </font>
<font color="black"> Yes, if you buy from a good source and a dealer with great support. The core tractors coming into the country are extremely sound. Where I have seen US imports/dealers problems is in the way they finish them like not filling fluid levels properly, putting in extremely cheap batteries, or replacing hardware with cheap stuff. I replace all the batteries on units of 36+hp with more expensive marine batteries, which means I also replace the positive cable to the alternator. Why? I know what it is like to not have the extra cold cranking amps in a really cold winter. My D3250 can be a bear to get going at 0 degrees and every little bit helps. The problems mentioned above are not unique to recons, they exist with some of the less QA focus used dealers as well. The problem is that QA takes time, patience, and it is easy to overlook it if you do not have a disciplines process or your service shop is really backlogged. I always advise customers to ask for the dealers “Tractor QA sheet”. This will tell you how good of a job he has done. Ultimately I would buy a well-finished recon every time.
<font color="blue"> It was my understanding that the Vietnam tractors imported from Japan are used extensively for 2-3 years, reconditioned and then imported to the U.S., Is this true?</font>
<font color="black"> No. The tractors that come across are mostly mid 80s and now were are seeing late 80s early 90s. I will tell you what drives me crazy… I have seen on the Internet some dealers in the used business say that their tractors are like “Dealer Program Cars” with low mileage and only easy work. Take an F-series made in the 80s or YM in the seventies. Who does a 20-year lease but only to 500 hours? How do you know what the tractor has been through? One thing is consistent with all the Japanese tractors is that roto-tilling, which is very popular is constant RPM work which helps with condition of the engines in general. The tractors my factory buys are grade#2 and #3 tractors, as defined in my bottom section. The myth that that teh vietnameese buy salvage tractors and try to piece them together just does not make business sense. It is easier to recondition an intact tractor that has all of its pieces rather than starting from a parts tractor. </font>
<font color="blue"> And finally, do you set or replace the hour meters to 0 to indicate the reconditioning process reflects a "Like new Tractor"? </font>
<font color="black"> The factory does in my case. I am not sure what the folk’s do that rebuild them here in the US. I have always replaced the hour meters in my 8Ns over the years after the shop was done re-building them often upgrading from an aftermarket back to the original type. It was never a problem for me, but I can see from forum posts that people feel the factory is hiding something. My experience has been that they have not.</font>
<font color="blue"> Honestly Bob, it is not my intention to put you on the spot, nor do I have a hidden agenda. I asked these same questions to Global Tractor in Cleveland, TX. last year. The biggest import tractor dealer in the South East (according to their sign) And not one question was answered truthfully or directly. In fact, up till now, I have never mentioned the Global name, and do so only because they are out of business</font>
<font color="black"> </font>
I am here to help and I am not going anywhere despite a few folks consistently bashing recons in the forums. I am a relatively small dealer with only 12-15 units at a given time, who has the time and resources to do things right. I know each tractor personally and have tested them all myself. I plan on staying small and manageable. Feel free to ask, I will help where I can and strive to give you a balanced answer. As you have seen, I am a proponent in the dealer QA process and finishing of these tractors that make the difference to the end customer. I do think I am the only one in the forum that has bought large quantities of these recon tractors. It seems most were burned by a load and gave up or stayed away from them completely based on what I read in the threads. It is a shame as there are great recon tractors out here! These e-bay incidents sure don’t help.
Check out the below thread, I was writing in response to about 5 PMs I have received asking similar questions. I have not had time lately to finish it so it may be a little rough... I make reference to it above. I plan on writing some more on dealer finishing and distribution.
I hope this helped!
Best Regards,
Bob
Understanding Recons Vs. Used
The poor recognition of good Vietnamese Reconditioned tractors is disheartening to me, but seems to be a reflection of dealers buying bad tractors, and not doing good QA or supporting their product. Not all recons and their dealers are that way and not all used dealers are reputable either. Consumers have to do their homework. Several senior forum members have sent me individual PMs asking questions about the Recon products, the industry, and what to watch out for, and who to buy from, but I want to share how both the Reconditioned and Used market work so everyone can make better consumer decisions. Also to explain why the quality of the dealer, how someone buys their tractors, and how they support them has so much to do with end user product. Through an better understanding of how dealers work, everyone will be able to ask better questions when purchasing a tractor whether it be used, reconditioned overseas, or someone in the middle.
Vietnamese Reconditioned Market: There is more than one factory in Vietnam
Definition: A Tractor that was bought in running condition, was taken apart including the heads and transmission, has been rebuilt and inspected internally from head to toe by a professional overseas and re-assembled (with all the pieces)
VIETNAM RECON: There is more than one factory overseas…
There is more than one major factory in Vietnam and new ones that are popping up. The Vietnam tractors are running tractors when they buy them in Japan typically #2. They get shipped to Vietnam for a rebuild process. The factory that I buy from does a great job at rebuilding the engines and transmissions. They are systematic, have worked out their kinks over the years, and the craftsmanship is fantastic. I have never had an engine or drive train problem from them. These guys are proud people and do good work. The main issues I have had are common to all transported tractors, which are loose bolts and a few scrapes/bumps do to loading/unloading. All of these tractors should have at least 5 hours on them before a customer ever sees them. (I will touch more on that in dealer prep.) This is not to say that every tractor is 100% perfect, but it is before the customer gets it and this is no different than the used market, which we will discuss next.
I expect to see the Chinese get into this market as they are doing a lot to the painting work for other types of tractors today.
Pros: Get a great dealer, with the right product, who did good QA practices, and great support and you will have a great tractor.
Cons: There are a lot of scamsters who are doing the market an injustice by pushing bad tractors, not doing the QA, and not supporting their products as evidenced by some of these threads.
Questions to ask A Reconditioned Dealer:
1) What are your support guarantees? How do you handle parts replacement during the warranty period and where do they come from?
2) Will you provide me with at least two references I can call?
3) How you do QA on your tractors? Can I see your checklist for the tractor I am interested in? Who did the QA and what is there background?
4) What issues do you typically find during your QA when tractors arrive off containers or Trucks, even if its little? (if they say none… run… every truckload or container has something that needed tightening)
5) How do you buy your tractors, containers or picked from a yard/larger dealer? (discussed later)
6) What support do you offer after the warranty period?
7) Tell me about your most difficult customer or a bad tractor and what you did to support it? Can I call that person for a reference?
8) Why do you buy from the source that you do?
USED TRACTORS: What choices do dealers in the US have when they buy used tractors form Japan? Many!
Definition: Has more than 100 hours on the gauge.
At the wholesale level, used tractors are sold in a few categories although different people have different names for them, so I will keep it generic and simple…
Type 1: Have hours, all known problems corrected, run great, and are shiny with new paint jobs.
These tractors are in running condition and are considered grade A with the added look of a semi-new tractor. Any issues with the tractors are taken care of before they ship. Where are they painted? Some are done in Japan, although that would be expensive, and I am not sure where else. The Japanese are very resourceful. What makes thing confusing is that these tractors are sometimes sold as “reconditioned tractors” although the transmission and engines are not always opened if the tractor is running well.
Pros: Nice tractors are a good price and they look good. With a great dealer for support you will be happy.
Cons: They are in great running condition, but have not been fully re-built/reconditioned as define above. You are buying a used product with 500 to 1000 hours.
Type 2: Have hours, all known problems corrected, and run great but look like used tractors with the scrapes and bruises.
These are also very poplar. They are less expensive for the dealer to buy and usually less expensive to the end customer. Any issues with the tractors are taken care of before they ship.
Pros: They have not been touched/broken down. With a great dealer for support, who prepped and QAed the tractor properly, you will be happy.
Cons: They have not been touched/broken down so you don’t know how hard the 500-800 hours were other than flushing the fluids and checking for metal shavings.
Type 3: “Smoking Joe” or “Banged-up Betty” tractor
These are B grade tractors from Japan that run but need repairs. Why do dealers buy them? They are much cheaper than any of the types of tractors discussed so far and make good candidates to tractors to be fixed or rebuilt in the US since all the parts are there. Typically the engines are smoking and they need internal work or have really bad body damage and are too ugly to sell as is.
Pros: This is tough; as by the time they get to the end customer they may look like any of the ones listed above. I have not seen anyone sell them out right, as tractors that need $500 to $1000 dollars of repair to look used and run right.
Cons: US rebuilt Japanese tractors are no different than the ones here. Quality depends on the rebuild. In the Metro Washington are there is one shop in VA that does good work (except when they get really busy), one shop in MD that is extremely expensive but always perfect, and a cheap guys all over to take you chances on. You really have to assess the shop and talk to references on a US recon.
Type 4: Salvage
They are parts tractors. I have only seen dealers buy them from Japan as you have to buy a container load at a time.
Type 5: Everything under the SUN. There are many twists on all of these and do your homework on the dealer. All I can say is… a YM2000 should always be red!
Questions to ask a Used Dealers:
1) What type of used tractor am I buying, what grade was it when you bought it?
2) Did you do any repairs to this unit? If so what?
3) If repainted, ask about what exactly was done? Did they fix it only if there was smoke or does someone pop the head in each part of the tractor and see what’s going on?
4) How you do QA on your tractors? Can I see your checklist for the tractor I am interested in? Who did the QA and what is there background?
5) What issues do you find during your QA when tractors arrive off containers or Trucks, even if its little? (if they say none… run… every truckload or container has something that needed tightening)
6) What are your support guarantees? How do you handle parts replacement during the warranty period(replacement or re-imbursement) and where do they come from?
7) What support do you offer after the warranty period?
8) Will you provide me with at least two references I can call?
9) How do you buy your tractors? (discussed later)
10) Tell me about your most difficult customer or a bad tractor and what you did to support it? Can I call that person for a reference?
That is as far as I have gotten. I hope that helps. Stay tuned for distribution and dealer QA tips…
Bob
