Extending leaching fields

[bcarter]

This is an interesting point...I can see where the amount of buildup would affect the rate that liquid seeps into the ground. But you should be able to take this into account when you design the size of the bed.

As far as I know the buildup is indeed a layer of slimy bacteria and its these (this?) bacteria that digest the nutrients in the effluent. Actually, the plastic leaching chambers have a membrane that promotes this layer and apparently this is one of the reasons that you need a smaller area for them (they're more efficient).

If a system is designed at the minimum size for the perk rate, and there was not enough "margin" left for the buildup of the slime layer I could see the system failing...maybe the minimum specs for system size have more margin built-in when the perk rates are lower. I know when the engineer designed my system the town had a "fudge factor" that he had to figure in...turned out the system had to be almost half again larger than the minimum. Around here the state sets the minimum standards and each town has its own board of health that has its own rules based on these standards. Most towns are more strict (ie require larger systems, larger distances to private wells, etc.) than the state minimums. The local board of health has the final say on systems for new construction but repairs on existing systems only have to meet the state minimums if they can't meet the town standards due to factors beyond control like small lot size (which is the problem that we had...) Of course it may require some "discussion" in order to get a waiver!

Your results may vary! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[W5FL]

The Texas Health Department got tired of failing systems and for the second time increased the requirements. Now you can have no solid rock or ground water within 5 ft of the surface. They charged me for a 5 bedroom house for the house and 2 bedroom for the barn. Made some long leach lines and there are only two of us living here. Didn't seem to matter that you can only use the one in the barn or the one in the house and not BOTH. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

On 10 acres, over 8 acres would not qualify due to rock ledges. The perk rate here has to be within a range. If it perks too well, it doesn not qualify either. Texas exempts 10 acres or more, but my county will not go along with that state law and permits them anyway.

 

[Bird]

Wen, are we "modernizing?" Navarro County has made the changes, too. And they hired a new "County Sanitarian" awhile back and jumped the permit fee from $10 to $400./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif How's that for inflation?

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

The biggest problem with any septic system is how to get rid of the excess water. One of the first things I would do is try and reduce the amount of water entering the septic system, use low flow shower heads and faucet aerators. Maytag make a washer called the Neptune to drastically cut down on the amount of water. Low flow toliets are a big help.
The other issue is that with a high water table, a convensional septic system would most likely not be permitted. I wouldn't like to see anyone doing after dark septic work. If you move a great deal of fill and you no longer see the efluent on the surface, you may still have a problem. Most water contains high amounts of phosphorus, nitrogen, virus and other pathogens that will enter the groundwater if the water is moving too rapidly through the soil to be treated by the bacteria in the soil.
I would suggest before you spend any money on your existing, you need to hire an experienced soil evaluator to come in and make a soil survey of your land and make recommendations as to how best to proceed.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

As a licensed sewage permit officer by the State of Pa. and by the Department of Environmental Protection the amount of false, wrong, and inaccurate information in the past posts is about what I encounter everyday. In the state of Pa. you can not make or contract for any repair or installation of a septic system with out obtaining a septic permit from the municipality in which you live. Every municipality is required to hire a state trained and licensed sewage enforcement officer. After making application the soil testing is scheduled, this is a two-part process. The first part requires a backhoe and deep pit excavated to determine the presence of a limiting zone and read the different soil horizons in the profile. A limiting zone is a characteristic of the soil that once sewage effluent encounters it renovation of the sewage will no longer take place. A seasonal high water table, bedrock, open rock fissures, and gravel voids with no soil between them are all examples of limiting zones. In Pa. you need at least 48" of renovating soil before the limiting zone to install any type of system. The second part of the test is the "perk test" this 6 holes 6-10' in dia. and 20" deep dug over the proposed absorption area. The holes are presoaked to swell the soil pores 8 to 24 hours before the test. Then 6" of water is poured in the holes and the rate of drop is measured until 4 consecutive readings within 1/4" of each other is obtained. This is converted to an application rate of square foot of absorption area per gallon per day of sewage flow from home. Example - 3 bedroom in Pa are rated at 400 gallons per day. The best percolation rate is 1.5 feet per gallon of flow. 400 gpd x 1.5 sf = 600 sf min absorption area size. After the testing is complete, you must the hire someone qualified to prepare a septic design for review that meets all state sewage codes. If approved a permit is then issued. The construction process requires inspections at certain points along the construction, and approval before covering the system is definitely required. It is not uncommon for sewage permit fees to run in the $600 - $1000 range. My area of coverage is very rural so these are not just city codes but state wide sewage disposal regulations. From previous posts it is alarming how little people understand about sewage disposal and how systems and soil work. You guys doing the after dark repairs.. Well I've dealt with many of them and boy do they yell when they have to appear at the magistrate, pay the fine, then abandon the work they did on their "midnight repair". Regardless of the $300 daily fine, most of the illegal repairs do not work for long anyway and you just endup putting your sewage in the seasonal water table. Glad I am not your neighbor. Save yourself the expense and hassle. Check with your local agency for advice and guidance before you begin. Every state is different but thes are the Pennsylvania requirements.

 

[MarkV]

It has been interesting to see how differnt the rules are from state to state. From what I have followed, most states have regulations although some rural areas seem to be on the honor system. Some areas require extensive tests of the soil and perk rates, as GlenM explained, while my area they looked things over and made sure the well head would be 100' away. Looks like other areas require small processing centers, like Bird, rather than leach fields. I have also seen areas where almost any system is illegal and a holding tank that gets pumped out is all you can do. The prices of systems have been interesting also. Around here on flat land a system for a 3 bedroom house runs about $1500. I spent $10,000 but most of that had to do with extensive site work to get a system in. Sounds like the processing plants, like Birds, run $5,000 give or take. I am surprised that the rates mentioned for more conventional leach field system, in some areas, run $12,000 plus. That seems like a huge jump from the $1500 leach field system here.

GlenM, what would you say the average cost, start to finish, for a system in your area is?

 

[TomG]

Nobody seemed to note that my camp system, I believe, is the least expensive way to solve a septic system problem that is code approved--at least around here.

Costs were: A composting toilet ($1200 Can). $200 for a permit. Raised leeching pit materials (1/2 load of septic stone, 64 cement blocks and 2 loads of soil). The pit could be built with shovels and backs, but a loader and box scraper equipped tractor is better.

The toilet has a capacity of 2 adults continuous use, and the leeching pit can take 1000 liters a day. Larger capacity systems can be built for not much more. The toilet is an electric type where a liquid overflow line is optional. There is some blower noise, but at least there is no ordour. The type of leeching pit construction probably will freeze up in the winter, which isn't much of a problem for us. The freezing problem probably could be fixed with a bunch of straw bales.

We didn't have a marshy leeching field, but my notion is that we fixed a problem for not much money. The problem was that a permit to reconnect to an existing system wouldn't be issued after the old house was demolished. Permit or not, we wouldn't want to keep using the old system anyway. If there was a problem, as far as I know, the solution for a marshy field is to stop putting crap in the ground, (immediately), get the tank pumped and to reduce the amount of gray water used until the field dries up.

Sometime we may want a regular septic system at the camp. That still probably can be done, but now at our convenience rather than under threat of fines and outraged neighbours; and, we'd still have the composting toilet to use at another place.

Anyway, good luck with dealing with the problem.

 

[bcarter]

GlenM,

Sounds like the rules in Pennsylvania are similar to the rules here. Massachusetts also requires permits before installing or repairing any septic system. Getting a permit for repairs requires submitting a written description of the work (and possibly a plan if the work is extensive), paying the fee and waiting patiently for approval. Getting a permit for a new system requires first getting a permit for a deep hole and perk tests and paying a fee, then getting a plan drawn up by a licensed engineer who is approved by the State (based in the tests results), paying the fee, and waiting patiently for approval. All work in this state must be done by a licensed installation contractor and all work must be inspected along the way and prior to covering it up. Permit fees vary because the local Board of Health has jurisdiction over the state... The fees for the testing runs about $100 and I've seen permit fees on the order of $100 - $200 but as I've said before "Your results may vary!".

I don't think that any of us providing "false, wrong, and inaccurate information" here is advocating an illegal repair to a septic system. I know that I'm certainly not... (Although technically I've made an illegal repair to our septic system when the line to the tank collapsed and things started backing up into the house. I had to replace a 4' section of clay pipe with PVC. The only reason I didn't get permits/inspections/etc to make this repair was that I had a permit in my hand to replace the entire system and the contractor wasn't coming for two more weeks.) I also don't think that any of us is claiming to be an expert on the subject of sewage disposal, although I don't see where any of the previous posts were too far off of what you described. It sounds like you've got expertise in this area and I for one appreciate that you have decided to share some of it.

Based on my experience some of the folks at the "local agencies" make the process for getting a permit much harder that it has to be. The rules are pretty clear cut so I'm not sure why they feel that they need to do this, but its way too common around here. Assuming that my experience is not out of the ordinary, I can see why people consider making "midnight repairs". Its the reason that I did it. Folks need to do their own research and make their own choices...and live with the consequences of those decisions (legal and otherwise) without whining about it.

 

[Bird]

Glen, I, too, appreciate your sharing the information. Fortunately, I've had no problem personally, but I know plenty of people who have had. Someone said the rules are pretty simple; well, not in Texas. There have been many changes, updates, etc. and the individuals who issue the permits don't always know the rules themselves. Several years ago, my brother-in-law butted heads with the County Sanitarian who wanted to require a permit, licensed installer, perc tests, inspections, etc. However, since my brother-in-law has a daughter who works for an attorney, she got him a copy of the state law. It's been 5 years since I've seen it, but if I remember right it was a 300-400 page book, and you would almost need to be an attorney to understand what it says. And since my brother-in-law had 10 acres, he was able to legally ignore the county sanitarian. And when my brother built his home, he decided it would be safer to get a permit, have the inspections, etc. even though it was not a legal requirement. To make a long story short, after 3 unsuccessful attempts to do everything exactly the way the Sanitarian requested, and each time being told he would have to start over, he finally went to the County Commissioners, and we now have a different Sanitarian.

Bird

 

[W5FL]

Bird,

Parker County apparantly has approval to over-rule the state law and requires permits on 10 acres and above, although the state law exempts them. I personally asked them about it a couple of weeks ago.