Ford 1900 wont start...electrical?

[JC-jetro]

Okay, what you exactly mean by jumping and using the ignition switch. if you directly jumping the starter then you are bypassing all switches and safety so it will keep on cranking till you take the jumper off. If you continue doing this you'll toast your starter and that would be another overhaul of newly overhauled starter. Ether is not a recommended method that might lead to reversible damage to piston and rods. We know that your rig can crank so reason for not starting might be fuel or compression. if you see smoke than that might be enough reason for fuel entry i to combustion chamber. If fuel is not atomized you'll have difficulty getting it to go. If you can not maintain good compression then you can develop enough heat to ignite the diesel fuel. I'd first make sure I have good fuel to the injector. Might pull and injector out and verify the spray pattern against a card board. High pressure fuel can penetrate flesh pretty easily so yo need to be vary careful. You might also do a compression test thru the glow plug but need to have proper tools and adapters to do it. Might be able to rent compression tester for free from automotive shop.

verify fuel delivery system and report back and we'll see where we can go from there.

JC,

Hi all, I'm back with an update. I've been tinkering for the last couple of weeks. Checked all wires and connections, and pulled some unused wires for things like cigarette lighter, flashers, etc. (i'll be wiring new lights in later on). I tested the old ignition switch, and it appears to be working as it should. Now using the ignition switch and jumping the starter produces the same result, which is, the engine starts to crank, and continues to crank and crank, even when i let go of the key and it turns back to on. My first question is, why would jumping the starter, or turning the key to START make the engine start cranking and continue cranking...and the only way I can get it to stop is by pulling the negative battery lead. It seems there is still an electrical issue...thoughts?
That aside, with all the cranking, the engine never starts. The battery died from turning it over for so long. The glow plugs all work, the engine is puffing smoke out the exhaust stack, I even gave it a shot of ether right into the intake, and it just doesn't want to go. I installed an inline heater in the lower radiator hose, but from what I've read in other threads on here, I need to get the motor running so the coolant circulates and air is bleed out before I should use the heater. Is that true?
Thanks

 

[freebird4986]

Once back together, I used the old ignition switch to try to start tractor from seat. I returned the new switch i ordered because it was defective (was sticking in start position) so i'm trying old one again, as I'm not sure it was the problem. So, I sat in the seat, held glow plugs for a bit, then tunred to START, and it just kept cranking when I let go. The only way I could get it to stop was by pulling the - battery cable. After this happened, i tried jumping across the starter terminals to get it to start, as I had done before, and even doing this the engine continued to turn over once I removed my jumper, so I had to pull the - battery cable again to get it to stop . I'm assuming something in the solenoid could be stuck, even though it's new?
I will check the fuel spray pattern from the injectors.
I have also emailed the previous owner to see if he ever had such problems.
I'm scrambling now, as we have a good size snow storm on the way.

 

[JC-jetro]

Strange indeed, so let me get it right. when you jump it directly from the battery the starter start and would not want to stop even if you take the jumper cable off?? only way I think that might happen is if the solenoid plunger can not return to it normal position either due to the crud build up or damaged return spring. I wonder if continued cranking fused the contacts together. if engine turns on with the starter gears engaged then the starter can get damaged as in reverse it could potentially generate electricity. The electrical feed back can cause unpredictable damage.

when the starter continues cranking and you end up removing the wire, then have you ever reconnected the wire to see if starter cranks right away?

JC,

Once back together, I used the old ignition switch to try to start tractor from seat. I returned the new switch i ordered because it was defective (was sticking in start position) so i'm trying old one again, as I'm not sure it was the problem. So, I sat in the seat, held glow plugs for a bit, then tunred to START, and it just kept cranking when I let go. The only way I could get it to stop was by pulling the - battery cable. After this happened, i tried jumping across the starter terminals to get it to start, as I had done before, and even doing this the engine continued to turn over once I removed my jumper, so I had to pull the - battery cable again to get it to stop . I'm assuming something in the solenoid could be stuck, even though it's new?
I will check the fuel spray pattern from the injectors.
I have also emailed the previous owner to see if he ever had such problems.
I'm scrambling now, as we have a good size snow storm on the way.

 

[freebird4986]

JC, you are correct with what you described. It continued cranking even when I jumped directly from battery to starter. I think I may have caused some damage by letting it crank for too long and heat up. I'll need to charge the battery to try again, and if this continues, I guess I'll have to pull the starter assembly again.

Strange indeed, so let me get it right. when you jump it directly from the battery the starter start and would not want to stop even if you take the jumper cable off?? only way I think that might happen is if the solenoid plunger can not return to it normal position either due to the crud build up or damaged return spring. I wonder if continued cranking fused the contacts together. if engine turns on with the starter gears engaged then the starter can get damaged as in reverse it could potentially generate electricity. The electrical feed back can cause unpredictable damage.

when the starter continues cranking and you end up removing the wire, then have you ever reconnected the wire to see if starter cranks right away?

JC,

 

[JC-jetro]

Freebird,

few questions here ; please respond one by one so I can try to decipher.

1) did you keep the positive and negative cables in tact and in position during your test?

2) did you actually took a " emergency jumper cable" and tried to start by using battery off of the tractor or any other portable battery? or did you short out connections on the starter using a screwdriver or short piece of wire to crank the engine?

3) when you used the jumper cable and tractor continued to crank, then what happened when you took the jumper off, did it continue to crank?

4) did you finally have to take a battery cable off the battery to stop cranking?

JC,

JC, you are correct with what you described. It continued cranking even when I jumped directly from battery to starter. I think I may have caused some damage by letting it crank for too long and heat up. I'll need to charge the battery to try again, and if this continues, I guess I'll have to pull the starter assembly again.

 

[freebird4986]

1) Positive and negative cable were in tact throught the test (except when I had to pull neg. cable to get starter to stop cranking)
2)After the continuos cranking using the key switch, I pulled the neg. battery cable to stop it. The i used a screwdriver to jump from pos. terminal on the starter to small solenoid terminal. This also resulted in the starter continually cranking, again. At this point the battery was weak, and it just about came to a stop, although it was still trying to start until I pulled the neg. battery cable again.
3)Yes, it continued to crank
4)Yup, had to pull neg. battery cable to stop the cranking.

I think those answers all sound like I've caused some damage to the starter or solenoid, or both.

Something I just thought of...because I was suspicious of the nuetral safety switch I have bypassed it for the purposes of getting the tractor started again. I used a length of new 12 gauge wire to connect the small terminal on the solenoid directly to the post on the ignition switch (I believe its the post #50). The original wiring for the nuetral switch had lighter gauge wire, maybe 14 or even 16 gauge. Could using this heavier gauge wire allow too much current to the solenoid? I wouldn't think so when considering it'sok to jump directly from the starter terminal to the solenoid terminal, but this was just a thought I had.

Freebird,

few questions here ; please respond one by one so I can try to decipher.

1) did you keep the positive and negative cables in tact and in position during your test?

2) did you actually took a " emergency jumper cable" and tried to start by using battery off of the tractor or any other portable battery? or did you short out connections on the starter using a screwdriver or short piece of wire to crank the engine?

3) when you used the jumper cable and tractor continued to crank, then what happened when you took the jumper off, did it continue to crank?

4) did you finally have to take a battery cable off the battery to stop cranking?

JC,

 

[JC-jetro]

1-On the neutral safety " if it is open" clutch not pressed in, then it can keep the starter from cranking but having shorted out the neutral safety only allows it to start without "pressing the clutch" but in no way it will cause the starter to continue spinning.

2-when you used the screw driver to jump then, did you take it off to stop? if so, and it continued then there I think you fused the solenoid contacts due to heat , hence you needing to take the negative wire off.

My suggestion is to take the starter where yo had it repaired and just tell them " it continuous to spin after I turn it on". if they bench test it it should give them the same result. I think the motor is okay, it is the internal switch. They might be able to undue and clean the contacts or put a new switch in. Do you know all that they have done on their repair? do you have the parts that they replaced?

3- You still have fuel issue, don't continue cranking for a hope to get it started. investigate the fuel delivery.

4- I wish Bill would chime in , do you know if you have a seat switch or anything else beyond the neutral safety switch? do you know if you have solenoid for fuel shut off to your injector pump . I'll try to look at NH website to see that. My IT manual does not indicate any fuel shut off solenoid for 1700 or 1900.

JC,

1) Positive and negative cable were in tact throught the test (except when I had to pull neg. cable to get starter to stop cranking)
2)After the continuos cranking using the key switch, I pulled the neg. battery cable to stop it. The i used a screwdriver to jump from pos. terminal on the starter to small solenoid terminal. This also resulted in the starter continually cranking, again. At this point the battery was weak, and it just about came to a stop, although it was still trying to start until I pulled the neg. battery cable again.
3)Yes, it continued to crank
4)Yup, had to pull neg. battery cable to stop the cranking.

I think those answers all sound like I've caused some damage to the starter or solenoid, or both.

Something I just thought of...because I was suspicious of the nuetral safety switch I have bypassed it for the purposes of getting the tractor started again. I used a length of new 12 gauge wire to connect the small terminal on the solenoid directly to the post on the ignition switch (I believe its the post #50). The original wiring for the nuetral switch had lighter gauge wire, maybe 14 or even 16 gauge. Could using this heavier gauge wire allow too much current to the solenoid? I wouldn't think so when considering it'sok to jump directly from the starter terminal to the solenoid terminal, but this was just a thought I had.

 

[freebird4986]

I appreciate all of your help JC. I think the contacts are fused as you said, because when I removed the screwriver I was using to jump it, it did contiue to spin. I'm going to take your advice and bring it back to the shop that serviced it. The originally replaced the solenoid, replaced brushes, and cleaned armature. It a reputable Auto Electric shop, so I have faith in their quality of work.

I'm going to replace the fuel filter, and bleed the filter canister and pump again. I guess it's possible there was still some stubborn air in there while I was trying to start it. I'm not sure if there is a fuel shut of solenoid either.

I don't believe there are any other safety switches, aside from the one I bypassed.

Eric

1-On the neutral safety " if it is open" clutch not pressed in, then it can keep the starter from cranking but having shorted out the neutral safety only allows it to start without "pressing the clutch" but in no way it will cause the starter to continue spinning.

2-when you used the screw driver to jump then, did you take it off to stop? if so, and it continued then there I think you fused the solenoid contacts due to heat , hence you needing to take the negative wire off.

My suggestion is to take the starter where yo had it repaired and just tell them " it continuous to spin after I turn it on". if they bench test it it should give them the same result. I think the motor is okay, it is the internal switch. They might be able to undue and clean the contacts or put a new switch in. Do you know all that they have done on their repair? do you have the parts that they replaced?

3- You still have fuel issue, don't continue cranking for a hope to get it started. investigate the fuel delivery.

4- I wish Bill would chime in , do you know if you have a seat switch or anything else beyond the neutral safety switch? do you know if you have solenoid for fuel shut off to your injector pump . I'll try to look at NH website to see that. My IT manual does not indicate any fuel shut off solenoid for 1700 or 1900.

JC,

 

[JC-jetro]

I did recheck and you do not have fuel solenoid kill switch. 1700/1900 do not have any operator Operator Presence Safeties other than clutch Neutral safety. It is difficult to remove the air from fuel system without cranking. Potentially you can turn the crank pulley by a breaker bar and that's actually how they check the fuel injector pump timing. It is a more difficult thing to figure out if your fuel timing is off leading to hard start. You do not want to dork with it unless you see the nuts on the injector pump are lose or injector pump body has moved. If the engine ran prior to you buying ( if you can trust the seller) then I would not worry about it for now. Check you air filter (in your case it might be the same as mine, Oil bath). A plugged you oil bath type filter can severely effect engine start.

JC,

I appreciate all of your help JC. I think the contacts are fused as you said, because when I removed the screwriver I was using to jump it, it did contiue to spin. I'm going to take your advice and bring it back to the shop that serviced it. The originally replaced the solenoid, replaced brushes, and cleaned armature. It a reputable Auto Electric shop, so I have faith in their quality of work.

I'm going to replace the fuel filter, and bleed the filter canister and pump again. I guess it's possible there was still some stubborn air in there while I was trying to start it. I'm not sure if there is a fuel shut of solenoid either.

I don't believe there are any other safety switches, aside from the one I bypassed.

Eric

 

[freebird4986]

I think the pump is ok. It did run for me a few times, and it ran well. The previous owner said it always ran well for him. This is my first diesel, so it seems I may have underestimated just how important it is to have every last bit of air out of the system, assuming thats what's preventing me from getting it started. If I have to take the starter back to the shop, I'll try turning over with a breaker bar to see if I can bleed. If that doesn't work, I'll wait until U get the starter back, and I'll try cranking at short intervals to bleed air out.
Mistakes are a good way to learn (though expensive sometimes). I can gaurantee that I won't abuse the starter by letting it crank endlessly again.
When attempting to start, should the throttle lever be wide open? I don't have it wide open last night when I tried, but I'm thinking I may have the previous time I started it.

I did recheck and you do not have fuel solenoid kill switch. 1700/1900 do not have any operator Operator Presence Safeties other than clutch Neutral safety. It is difficult to remove the air from fuel system without cranking. Potentially you can turn the crank pulley by a breaker bar and that's actually how they check the fuel injector pump timing. It is a more difficult thing to figure out if your fuel timing is off leading to hard start. You do not want to dork with it unless you see the nuts on the injector pump are lose or injector pump body has moved. If the engine ran prior to you buying ( if you can trust the seller) then I would not worry about it for now. Check you air filter (in your case it might be the same as mine, Oil bath). A plugged you oil bath type filter can severely effect engine start.

JC,