Ford 9N and 12 volts

[HarryVanderpool]

I have to respectfully disagree.
If an engine is in such a high state of wear that it will not fire, it needs to be rebuilt. You are going to be down on power also.
The 9N only starts out with 21 HP.
Who wants a shot version of 21HP?

When we bought our 2N it had an 8 volt battery installed.
The seller explained that, "These things are hard startin'."

Many times when giving the farm tour people will say something like, "Look at that sweet old tractor!"
I walk around and open the gas valve, pop it into neutral, pull the choke, turn on the key, say, "I'll show you what sweet is......"
Push the starter button; "Waa waa waa RUMMMUMMUMMUMM....

Take a peek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/DSC00334.jpg

 

[Soundguy]

Look.. I'm not going to argue with you.. and you can disagree all you want. I'm not saying it is a GOOD thing to convert a worn out engine to 12v to help with starting.. I'm saying that it is a -COMMON- thing that happens.

I read a dozen or more other boards.. mostly antique boards.. and i can tell you for a certainty.. that lots of 12v conversions get done to aid in starting a tired engine.

I agree that if you are lower than spec compression, you are loosing hp. ford specs 90psi minimum.. I've seen plenty of 75 psi engine running and mowing and doing ok.. even though they are tired and would love new rings, valve job, and and sleaves.. etc.

For some people.. it is a lack of $$ for the 500$ rebuild kit.. or the 500-1000$ of labor and machine shop work to rebuild an N engine correctly.

for some it is a lack of time for the machine to be down while being fixed correctly

Still.. for others it is a lack of knowledge of how to rebuild it themselves, and not wanting to spend the $$ to get it done.

In many cases a full rebuild isn't even needed. various 'upper' or lower' jobs just to drop in rings or do valves, and drop in crank brearings sometimes pump lots of like into an old carcass.

On the flip side... while an indiovidual may not be able to do an engine overhaul in his carport.. or drop 500-1500$ to have it done.. they CAN buy a 25$ gm /delco 10-si alternator from a rebuilder or junk yard, and then cobble a bracket kit.. or buy a 30$ bracket kit, and a new 29$ walmart battery and a 5$ resistor convert their tractor to 12v, in a couple hours or less, and the extra speed that 12v system spins that 6v starter ups the average compression enough that a hard starter now starts much easier.. etc.

I'm not debating the pro / con of that issue.. just stating what i see happen every day.

When i bought my 8n, it also had an 8v battery in it.. plus an incorrect ( b-circuit ) vr. All it needed was points and condensor,a nd a 6v battery, and the correct a-circuit vr and she starts just fine. I have plenty of 6v tractors, a couple ones that were converted from 6to 12, and a few that were 12v to begin with.

Again.. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with... I'm pointing out an observation I have made from years ov viewing online tractor sites, and hangin out with people that own old equipment..... Are you disagreeing with what i have observed then?

My opinion is the same as yours.. a worn engine needs to be corrected.. not band-aid'ed..

Soundguy

I have to respectfully disagree.
If an engine is in such a high state of wear that it will not fire, it needs to be rebuilt. You are going to be down on power also.
The 9N only starts out with 21 HP.
Who wants a shot version of 21HP?

When we bought our 2N it had an 8 volt battery installed.
The seller explained that, "These things are hard startin'."

Many times when giving the farm tour people will say something like, "Look at that sweet old tractor!"
I walk around and open the gas valve, pop it into neutral, pull the choke, turn on the key, say, "I'll show you what sweet is......"
Push the starter button; "Waa waa waa RUMMMUMMUMMUMM....

Take a peek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/DSC00334.jpg

 

[wolc123]

I would steer clear of any n that has been converted to 12 volts. Many see 12 volts as an advantage but, as others have pointed out, it is often a band-aid on a worn out engine. My old 51 8n with 1800 hours on it will start on the second or third turn every time on six volts even when the temp is below zero. If you can keep it 6 volts, it will be easier to sell some day to an educated buyer.

 

[Soundguy]

There are a few 'valid' reasons to convert to 12v.

i did an article on this for a magazine a while back.. specifically covered fords.. but, in general, applies to all.

1, a good reason to convert to 12v is if you need to run 12v equipment.. for instance.. sprayers, or dump trailers with 12v wet kits for hyds... or for trailers with electric brakes that will need 12v systems.

2, another reason is the need for more lighting than can be provided by a 6v system. Typically 6v gennies put out a max of 66 - 120w.. that ain't much when you fiture ignition, and lighting... also.. that wattage is at max rated rpm. gennies are not efficient at low rpm. I fyou run at night near a road.. or on a road.. your tractor may need ( legally ) more lighting... if at least for safety.. or for 'work area' illumination.

3, cost of repair. If you have a tractor that has a shelled out 6v system, then typically the cost to replace the genny is between 100-200$ if you are lucky to not have a specialized unit with a tach drive on it.. Costs of battery and ignition coil, if used will be a wash.. a 6v and 12v battery is about the same price.. same for te coils. that leaves you with the genny / alternator cost. A delco 10/12 SI alternator can be had for 25$ at most salvage yards.. pre-tested.. or for 35$ as a rebuild from a parts house.. these units will run from 35amps all the way up past 60 .. even 90 and higher depending on the application it was used in. Typical units can be found in the 45-60a range. Brackets can be made or bought cheaply.. i see universal bracket kits inthe 25-35$ range... Thus the cost of a complete 12v refit vs repalcement of a 6v system can be cheaper.. much cheaper depending on the individual circumstances.. if $$ is tight... 12v is uauslly the easier choice.

4, safety and utility... Most people don't know the correct way to jump/boost a 6v vehicle from a 12v vehicle without blowing something up... If everything is 12v.. it makes life simpler when you have employees to deal with. Also.. if your tractor is a machine that may have to be the jumper / booster.. then it is helpfull to have it as the same voltage as your automobile. I know of many situations where tractors have had to jump start auto's.. having a 12v tractor was quite helpfull in those cases.

5, conversion due to limited parts availability. Depending on your geographic location, sometimes it's just plain hard to find repalcement 6v parts. I have personally been in a 'need-it-now' situation with a 6v tractor that i converted to 12v because i could not find a replacement 6v starter.. or the 6v field coils and brush plate to repair my starter.. however 12v parts were available. If i had had the time to wait a week or two.. i could have found the 6v parts.. however.. in the end.. it was easier to have the starter rebuilt as 12v, and slap an alternator on it using an of fthe shelf bracket kit for 20$, and a 25$ alternator. The sale of the working generator paid for the starter rebuild and the alternator / brackets... that just left me getting a 12v 30$ walmart battery at the time, and i was back going that same day. Tough call.. but at the time.. had to be made. If I had it to do Over.. i'd have kept the 6v parts, and perhaps stored them.. or even bit the bullet and bought a new 6v starter to swap back at a later time.. etc.

6, swapped parts. I've also seen engine re-powers from similar later models that brought with them, 12v parts. for example.. IH cub tractors pre- 1966 were 6v, and changed over to 12v in mid 66. I've seen repowers of older cubs using an engine from a newer model, and the owner simply swapped over the entire unit.. battery ignition and all.. new 12v genny.. etc. Ford tractors in the late 50's / erly 60's used 6v on the 134/172 gas engine.. but when the 144/172 diesel came out, they used 12v for them.. I've seen plenty of repowers that swapped to, or retained 12v due to the repowered engine..e tc.

I have a mix of 6v and 12v equipment. my 6v 1955 ford 660 starts onthe first rev.. just like my 12v converted 1955 ford 850.. compression is good on both engines.. I have no idea why the prev owner converted the 850 to 12v... for what i can tell.. it would have run and started fine on 6v looking at the compression numbers.

I wouldn't steer clear or a 12v converted unit..I'd just make sure i know what the purpose was.. and check the general condition of the machine... a tired engine is pretty easy to diagnose.

Now.. what i will steer clear of are machines that need ether to start. If it's adicted to ether.. I don't want it...

soundguy

 

[wolc123]

I bought a farmal cub that had been converted to 12 volt and I use a sprayer with a 12 volt pump on it very often. I will go along with that reason for sure, but if an old tractor starts well when cold on 6 volts you can skip a lot of steps and still be confident the engine is pretty tight.

 

[Soundguy]

I bought a farmal cub that had been converted to 12 volt and I use a sprayer with a 12 volt pump on it very often. I will go along with that reason for sure, but if an old tractor starts well when cold on 6 volts you can skip a lot of steps and still be confident the engine is pretty tight.

100% agreed.

That cub you bought.. did they convert it the 'right' way by getting the oem 12v genny that was used 66+.. or did they hand an alternator on it? If they used a genny.. it probably wasn't a bad looking deal.. probably looke doem.. etc..

soundguy

 

[wolc123]

It is definitely not an OEM installation. The tractor is more of a "user" than a "shower", not pretty to look at as there in a 6"x4" notch torched out of the hood to make room for what looks like a delco alternator. It also has an old chevy steering box welded above the front axle on the right side, and a molded plastic seat. While not a collectors dream, this tractor is more functional than an original, having precise steering, comfortable seat, and the ability to operate 12v acessories. To me it is worth more than one with shiney paint and all the original parts.