Foriegn brand tractors

rockyridgefarm · Jun 17, 2004

( Has anyone herd of Workhorse tractors? )

They are chinese tractors someone imports. They are basic machines with limited support from the manufacturer, often with weak dealers. There is a great group of owners who help each other here and on www.ctoa.com

( I've looked at JD, the salesman was a creep, I'm not giving those people one thin dime. )

Dealers are independant businesses. They hire people to work for them. There are other dealers if you really want to consider a Deere. You can also ask to speak to a different salesman.

( I'm partial to New Holland, but the local dealer wants $18000 for a TC21 w/loader. Too much. )
Lotsa dealers start out quoting list. I also think its stupid. but if you a partial to NH, ask for a competitve quote. You might be surprised.

And get apples to apples. A gear 2wd 20Hp Workhorse will be TONS less than an 30Hp HST 4WD loader ready NH, Deere, Kioti, Mahindra or Kubota

( There's lots of good deals on used equipment out there, but I'd really like something new. )
Nothing wrong with that! Actually, if you use low interest financing, I can't see how used is a better deal than new. I regularly see used equipment selling for more than the dealers sell new.

( In Phoenix we have three options for foreign brand tractors: Kioti, Mahindra, and Workhorse )
Both Kioti and Mahindra have quite a following. I don't know personally about Mahindra, but Kioti has an excellant dealer/parts network. I already mentioned Workhorse.

( (I specifically omitted Kubota, they cost as much as as the domestic brands.) ).
Don't forget Total Cost of Ownership. Lotsa folks will tell you their Kubota is worth every penny they paid for it. And then ther's that apples to apples thing. Kubota also makes less equipped bargain machines, as do all the others...

( If the domestic brand tractors are all made in Japan, China, or India anyway, (
They all aren't. See my earlier reponse.

( why do they cost twice as much? )
They don't. Sure you can get a list price fully equipped machine quoted at one place, that has a two or three year full warranty, and compare that to a stripped basic machine with a 6 month parts only warranty, and with rounding, the first will be twice as much. But compare apples to apples, and get competitve quotes and often times the DeereNHKubKiotis are LESS.

( Is there an appreciable difference in quality? )
Yes, there is. But, what works for one, may not be right for another. You often hear comments about the plastic on Deeres and NHs, but it is great stuff, and has real advantages. But there are advantages to metal too.

( I appreciate any help y'all can offer.
Thanks. )
You said ANY help. I hope this was a little.

rockyridgefarm · Jun 17, 2004

SPIKER Wrote: One reason that DEERE and NH took some STATE SIDEW dealers to court for "TRADE DRESS LAW SUITS" ya DEERE thinks they should OWN the color GREEN and NH wants to own BLUE... MAN that is pretty bad huh...

Hard to see how anyone would confuse that with a Boomer, huh?

Daedong builds great tractors. It is a shame they get all wrangled up in the looking like a Kubota mess. Same for the Chinese. Don't try and look like Deere, NH or whatever, and not be ready for the storm.

Car manufactures are in the same arena. DCX sued GM over the grill on the Hummers. The only reason GM won was because both Hummer and Jeep started out as the same company...

Soundguy · Jun 17, 2004

( JINMAS are very inexpensive but with solid materials even if the workmen ship has a few glitches )

Um.. I think their metalurgy is still not up to par with jap and other countries. Neither is their assemblyline parting process. Lots stuff is hand fitted or looks that way. Apple to apple, cast parts on the jinmas look bigger and heavier, presumably just to attain the same strength of other countries cast parts.

I don't have direct evidence to support this.. other than visual observation, that when compairing two equal HP tractor.. one a jinma.. and another 'domestic' model.. the jinma is bigger bulkier and heavier.. for the same given hp... Castings are cruder in finish.. cast material appears more porous .. etc.

I agree that their workmanship is lower.. but I also think their materials are of a lower quality as well. Heck.. after reading the reports on the chineese forum.. it seems that an importing dealer has to change out quite a few things before selling the tractor... fluids, possibly batteries.. orings.. and there were even messages about changing out fasteners.. etc.

Mind you.. this is all offset as the price is 1/3 or less of a 'big 3'.. and it is understood that you are getting a more 'hands on' tractor in the deal.

Soundguy

rockyridgefarm · Jun 17, 2004

OK soundguy, I am not flaming, but I noticed also that the Jinma machines were larger displacement for a given HP. Does that mean they are more concervativey rated, or just less efficien, or whatever? Does that affect fuel economy? Does any of this matter?

One thing I have noticed between many designs is how easy getting on and off is. I am always jumping off and climbing on and some designs are a whole lot friendlier there. The Jinmas I have seen were almost scary there, the bransons were better and the DeereKubs etc were better still. It costs more to move levers outta the way, but in my use, it is a real benefit. Again, that might not matter one iota to the nest guy...

slowrev · Jun 17, 2004

As far as the looks like a JD or Kubota suits. If the auto industry takes this approach they will all be in trouble because most all of them look alike. Have to look for badges on cars to see what they are now-a-days.

Soundguy · Jun 17, 2004

( I noticed also that the Jinma machines were larger displacement for a given HP. Does that mean they are more concervativey rated, or just less efficien, or whatever? Does that affect fuel economy? Does any of this matter? )

I don't know either. Generally though.. If I see a two machines with the same given hp.. and one has more CID.. I generally like the higher CID one better... less stress on the parts per hp. For instance.. the NH tc 33 is rated the same hp as my Nh 1920.. the tc is 3 cyl.. and quite a few less cid than my 4 cyl 1920. Looking at both machines.. ( tc33 is smaller too ).. I fully expect my 1920 to be tougher.. and last longer than that tc33.. thereagain brings up the metal plastic issue too.. my 1920 has metal hood etc.. boomer is plastic..

One thing that comes to mind is compression ratio.. perhaps the larger cid jinma has less CR.. therby needing the more CID for the same rated hp? Again.. even with less CR.. that again means less stress on the engine.. hopefully meaning it will last longer... I guess you could call that less efficient.. ? if the materials in the engine don't let them design to the higher CR standards.. thus they have to make a bigger CID engine to do the work.. I guess that falls into that category.. I doubt it effects fuel economy though.. but then.. I havn't seen any numbers on that. I will say this.. every small diesel engine I've ever owned or used.. has been great on fuel... With the small fuel tank on a jinma.. I'm guessing they don't 'guzzle' either.

( One thing I have noticed between many designs is how easy getting on and off is. I am always jumping off and climbing on and some designs are a whole lot friendlier there. The Jinmas I have seen were almost scary there, the bransons were better and the DeereKubs etc were better still. It costs more to move levers outta the way, but in my use, it is a real benefit. Again, that might not matter one iota to the nest guy... )

My NH 1920 is my easiest on/off tractor I have.

My '50 JD-B trike is the most difficult.. since you have to climb up over the back axle which is nearly waist high.. and then maneuver around a tire and a big seat... glad it doesn't have fenders.. All three of my fords are 'medium' in that you hit the running board and swing a leg over the gearshift and tranny and ride. The 2N would be harder as it came with just foot pegs.. but it was retrofitted with running boards making it similar to my 8n and NAA. Once on.. plenty of room.. same as jd-b.

My yanmar is also medium. Only because the small operator platform.. feels like a fighter jet cockpit.. lotsa levers sticking out.. With a big boot on.. my foot is nearly the smae size as the running board on my ym1700..

Lets see.. my IH cub is a bit of a finagle.. not real easy way to enter.. Ya haveta grad the steering column support and swing inbetweenthe steering wheel and arm rest.. but then the op platform is great... no tranny to straddle.. big comfy seat with padding and backrest and arm rests.. break and clutch side by side right where the feet are.. and a nice metal floorboard. tranny and pto shifter are on the left side..

All in all.. I see the JB and the cub being a bit difficult if I ever get impaired mobility...

The few jinma I've been on are similar to my fords.. I'd give them a 'medium'.. easier than yanmar.. not as easy as my New Holland.

Soundguy

rockyridgefarm · Jun 17, 2004

( thereagain brings up the metal plastic issue too.. my 1920 has metal hood etc.. boomer is plastic..
)

Well cheap plastic is junk. The good stuff is awesome.

Cheap metal is junk. The good stuff is awesome.

I have seen my plastic hood shrug off stuff that would crumple many metal hoods.

Soundguy · Jun 17, 2004

( Well cheap plastic is junk. The good stuff is awesome.
Cheap metal is junk. The good stuff is awesome.
I have seen my plastic hood shrug off stuff that would crumple many metal hoods. )

True. And the plastic I've seen on the Boomers and jinmas fall into that 'junk' category you mentioned. Most of the hood attatchments I've seen on the jinmas leaves a bit to be desired about the mldings or formings.. and the scratches I've seen on new hoods at the NH dealer is scary.. at least with metal.. probably only the paint scratched off and can be buffed and repainted...

Fiberglass adds another page to the discussion.. as well as those nice plastics you mention.. especially ones with kevlar or nylon weaves... very neat.. bump and dent resistant.. deform and return great.. color is all the way thru the material.. not on the surface.. etc...

Soundguy

SPIKER · Jun 17, 2004

True about the same HP Jinma being LARGE and HEAVIER than a compariable big 3, this is very helpfull if you are actually doing GROUND engaugement work. I find that my 284 which weighs with FEL about 4200lbs. for a 28 hp 4 wheel drive, now pto speeds it is still a 25 hp and 22 pto hp. but it will pull better than a big three with more HP and less weight as if you can't put the HP to the ground it is useless that goes to say if you need PTO HP then there is a different xstory all together, I could use more PTO HP when running my mower and hit something wet & long grass... but I usually run about 1800 RPMs which is below the PTO 540 so mower blades are not up to speed. Full tank of gas lasts about 10 hrs give or take for 5 gallons. depending on useage. Larger CDI, has nothing to to with desile compression, all of them diesel engines need 22:1 compression to get the fuel compressed to it's ignition point. all in all larger CDI will mean a it needs more fuel to fill to the point that it produces enough power. does not mean less fuel effiecent. More HP usually yes. it can idle and use very little gas but it is not doing work.

anyhow my brain is fried today too much xylene cleaning parts up to powder paint them, they did turn out very good except for some how a flying bug (looks like a horse fly wing) got into the paint when it was curing and now I have a very nice white booth with a big ole honking wing stuck to the side! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

anyhow I don't particullary care for the fiberglass hoods on the jinmas, but mine has not cracked denter or anything else and I've used it for scafolding more than once and the amish used it for scafolding too causght them jumping from the FEL (full up to barn roof height) and onto the hood... Scuff marks were there from shipping but a few boot marks got added. It didn't crack form 6' 200 lbers standing on it though (LUCKLY!) /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif I only weight in at 160 but still I walk right across the hood on my jinma guess that glass they use was put together OK ...

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tough451 · Jun 17, 2004

I bought a Massey because they have been built every where for so long I figured they knew what they were doing. I couldnt be happier with my choice.
As far as chinese go I used to work for a Japanense compressor company that moved to China they took all of our hand tools because they said the Chinanese couldnt make good tools but they were going to let them make compressors. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Foriegn brand tractors

rockyridgefarm

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rockyridgefarm

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Soundguy

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rockyridgefarm

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slowrev

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Soundguy

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SPIKER

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