Front Mount PTO Question

[TO_Bud]

Just bought 1 of these from Titan http://www.titandistributorsinc.com...for-skidsteer-bobcat-kubota.html#.U660kLHfvEI so I could use some of my attachments off the loader. I've been kicking around the idea of adding a 3 pt hydraulic motor to the plate to run a PHD and 3 pt spreader and maybe even a 4" wide brush hog. This is the motor I had in mind from Surplus Center 9.59 CU IN PTO DRIVE MOTOR . Problem is my NH TC40D only puts out 9.8 gpm max. Need some opinions on those more knowledgeable then me if I'm dreaming or is this doable. I was hoping the use of the gearboxes on the implements might enhance the torque at the output. The spreader wouldn't be a problem but the phd and brush hog are the questions.

Thanks, Bud

 

[J_J]

Your PTO motor using your 9.8 GPM is going to run at less than half speed, meaning about 236 rpm.

You can work with that speed, but that is not the speed the bush hog is designed for.

Post hose digger will work fine.

9.8 GPM into this motor will provide about 457 rpm.

4.95 CU IN PTO DRIVE MOTOR

 

[hydriv]

As far as the PHD goes, why re-invent the wheel? McMillen makes fully engineered and tested hydraulic augers that will clip onto any FEL.

McMillen Hydraulic Augers - Order Online!

This model will run on oil flow as low as 6 GPM so your 9.8 GPM should work just fine and provide reasonable drilling speed.

McMillen X975 Skid Steer, Skidsteer, Planetary Auger Drive Unit, 2" Hex Drive, 6-15 GPM, 24" Max diameter Auger


OK.. the price won't make you happy but the quality of the McMillen will. And if you decide to sell it, you are selling the best. That means it should sell quickly and ....for top dollar.

Yes.... you could make your own PHD... no question. But do you want to go through all the engineering and fabrication?

On the surface that hydraulic motor from Surplus Center looks like the answer to your prayers.

However, the rear PTO found on most AG tractors is designed to spin at 540 RPM to power attachments. In order to make this motor spin at 540 RPM, your hydraulic system needs to put out 20 to 24 GPM continuously and you don't have that.

However..... I see no reason why your 3 point spreader could not be converted to hydraulic drive. But doing so would mean that you could no longer power it from the rear PTO of a tractor. It probably has the drive shaft feeding into a right angle gear box that spins the slinger plate. You could delete the driveshaft and gearbox. Rotate the driveshaft side of the gearbox one full turn and count the number of rotations of the slinger shaft.

For discussion purposes, let's say that one PTO rotation equals 6 slinger rotations. Therefore, if the PTO is spinning at 540 RPM, then the slinger is spinning 6 times faster or 3240 RPM. More likely than not, that ratio is too fast but.... you need to determine exactly what it is because the size of your motor depends on knowing that number.


So... let's say that the slinger only needs to rotate at 1080 RPM. You need a geroler motor that will spin at 1080 RPM when 9.8 GPM is flowing through it.

This one comes close.

1.21 cu in CHARLYNN 129-0365 NICKEL PLATED HYDRAULIC MOTOR

But you will have to use a Flow Control Valve on it to keep it from over revving. The good news is that this motor, unlike the one you asked about, does not need a case drain line. Just hook it up with two hoses and you are good to go. I am just throwing out some ideas here but they should not be considered to be the final solution. You need to have accurate information first about the actual RPM of the spreader before a motor can be selected.

As for the brush hog, it too can be driven hydraulically but why would you want the driveshaft? Ingersoll made a 4 foot hydraulic drive brush hog for their line of tractors and it works very well. However it is towed by the tractor because it is far too heavy for a CAT 0 hitch. But it could be converted to CAT 1 three point so that it would mate up with your adapter plate. Unfortunately, you would have to add a case drain line to your loader arms and then plumb it into the return line leading to your reservoir. Not a big deal but it is an added expense.

 

[TO_Bud]

Thanks for the advice J_J and Hydriv. As far as buying new augers and mowers the price is simply too high. I have a mechanical (driveshaft) PHD already as well as the spreader and brush cutter. The Charlynn motor has the rpm but almost zero torque. I was just assuming more torque would be an advantage especially when paired to a gearbox. Was hoping the gearbox on a brush hog, or PHD would multiply the final output. J_J is it your opinion then that the smaller motor you listed would be better all around for the various implements I mentioned? Hydriv does the "case line" mean I can't run this motor off a rear remote plumbed to the front of the tractor? The specs also say "reversible" so I confused somewhat.

 

[hydriv]

The hydraulic motor you selected would do what you want providing you owned a tractor like this.

http://agriculture.newholland.com/u...ural-Tractors/T7/Pages/products_techinfo.aspx


Flat out, your tractor just does not have the hydraulic flow needed to spin that motor at 540 RPM so it can deliver the torque required to power the attachments. You seem to think that it has zero torque but the specs tell me different. That motor can produce 231 foot pounds of torque if it is fed properly.

It does have a case drain because the specs tell us that the port size is SAE 4. You would have to run THREE hoses from this motor. Two would go to the remotes and the case drain line would have to connect to a suitable low pressure return line in the hydraulic system or...directly into the reservoir. The case drain is there to protect the front seal and it must be connected.

The motor JJ suggests is smaller but so is the torque output. It drops to 140 foot pounds but only if it is being fed 17 GPM, which your tractor cannot supply. It too uses a case drain.

With all due respect, I wonder if you have though this through. Putting a 4 foot brush hog on the end of your loader means that you are pushing an implement that was designed to be pulled. Travelling with it in the air will certainly be an experience. Same with the PHD. That is a lot of leverage on your loader when digging tough ground. The biggest advantage to your idea is that you can reverse the rotation of the hydraulic motor providing your remote valve has the ability to do so. That would allow you to unscrew the auger bit if it got stuck, which they frequently do in soils with rocks and roots.

All in all, it is not a lot of money to spend to see if it will work for you or not. At most, you will be into this for less than $500.00. If you go ahead with it, please return to this thread after testing all three attachments and let us know the pros and cons.

 

[J_J]

Yes, most hyd motors are reversible, and that is a good thing for the auger.

The smaller hyd motor will provide less torque.

If you are talking about a case drain, that line always goes to tank.

You can run your hyd motor from any valve, but the motor spool valve will provide you with some control other than full speed with a lever bungeed open.

You need something to control the jyd motor.

Foe one way operation, this valve will work. 3/8 NPT HYD FLOW CONTROL VALVE W/RELIEF RDRS137-08

For controlling hyd motor both directions. Speed of motor is where you hold the lever.

1 SPOOL 14 GPM PRINCE WVS11C5C1 MOTOR VALVE

Someone makes a friction control valve where the speed of the hyd motor will stay at the set rpm.

The flow control valve above will do that in one direction only.

 

[hydriv]

JJ.
I am always open to learning. So I am curious about the items you selected. The pump flow is almost 10 GPM. Why not use a flow control valve with 1/2 inch ports and a motor valve with SAE 10 ports and 1/2 inch hoses?

The nomograph indicates that 1/2 inch hose is very close to being too much velocity for that flow and that 5/8 hose would be a better choice to keep heat down.

May I have your thoughts on this?

 

[J_J]

Whatever matched up with the flow rate of the pump.

I don't know the size of the hoses he is using.

Same price.

1/2 NPT HYD FLOW CONTROL VALVE W/RELIEF RDRS150-16

 

[TO_Bud]

Hydriv the motor I was referring to with little torque is the one you suggested, making 27 ft lbs only. Regarding thinking this through I started this post to do just that. I knew J_J would probably respond, he normally does and he's quite helpful. I also know that my tractor can't spin these motors as they are designed because of the my limited gpm but it can spin them. When I run my PHD now off the 3 point I run mostly at idle, so I'm no where near 540 on my pto rpm. I understand now that the case drain is a third line, I only saw 2 ports in the pic on Surplus Center site but between the 2 of you that has been cleared up. I only have a very small area that I would use the brush hog in using the loader. I need to push it over a bank decline to my river in a few places. It's not that steep but is not safe to back down into much. As far as carrying it on my loader, no problem at all, same goes for the PHD and I also don't think the loader arms would have the slightest problem supporting a post hole dig with an 8" auger, my soil is not rocky. The spreader I have will operate no problem, may not throw 20 ft but it'll throw 10 on the front. I'm thinking this through because I don't turn around so well anymore, it's hard to operate these things turned in the seat. Lastly I will return to the thread if and when I get it set up.

Bud

 

[hydriv]

The motor I suggested was one that would possibly work with your seed/fert spreader, providing you ditched all of the mechanical drive. The output shaft of that motor would spin the slinger plate directly. But as I stated, that particular motor was just a guess on my part. In order to figure out the correct motor, the RPM of the slinger plate would have to be calculated. It would not take very much torque to spin that slinger.

But since you do not wish to convert any of your attachments, the whole subject is moot.

I look forward to reading your report.

Thank you for the explanation regarding the ditch mowing. That clarifies things immensely.