Fuel additives

[3930dave]

Newbury got his info from many sources. European diesel has a scar rating under 460, sometimes even 400. US fuel allows 520 micron wear scar with the HFRR fuel test, but the maximum wear allowed by Bosch and other designers is 460 micron. So the larger particle size here acts like sand and tears up the fuel pumps.

YES, Europe has been running ULSD for a long time, but they keep the larger particles out. I did not write nor mean to imply that Europe does not run ULSD. I meant to imply the fuel pumps were originally designed on LSD and then for "clean ULSD".

Like most stories, that one is about (big) money. Once the sulphur was scheduled to be removed from N.American fuel - the battle was on between Big Oil and the Engine Manufacturers. Sulphur had lubrication value to pumps, so to replace that, extra additives needed to go into ULSD. Additives cost money, so Big Oil lobbied for, and got, the higher Wear Scar limit that the Engine Manufacturers did not want.

Less lubrication means higher Wear Scar - that is the main reason I use a modern Lube additive in today's ULSD.

I don't know Kub's well enough to know what Emission Tier your tractor is OP, but please be aware that there were olde tyme practices with fuel that can cause problems today. Old mechanically injected low pressure diesels could often tolerate "stuff" in fuel that can cause major problems with today's post-emission diesels.

Rgds, D.

 

[newbury]

A couple of random but pertinent points -

VW had a policy of absolutely no additives on their Common Rail engines, until after a few years of imploding High Pressure Fuel Pumps that they finally agreed to warranty they started passing out an additive similar to Diesel Kleen or Power service. Our son bought 2013 Passat TDI and refused to use additives, his HPFP self destructed last year after about 40k miles, they gave him a bottle after the several thousand dollar repair.

I've used PS etc since tank 1 and no problems at about 75k.

Don't leave fuel designed for warm get real cold and expect to use it. Without any additive #2 will start to cloud around freezing, at 40 below zero it will be like a rubber block and you need to wash it with kerosene.

I had a '79 VW Diesel Rabbit. Filled up in New Jersey at about freezing, drove to Northern Vermont, still had half a tank. Dropped to 40 below that night. Had to put the fuel lines and filter in a hot water bath to get started. Educational experience.

 

[3930dave]

A couple of random but pertinent points -

VW had a policy of absolutely no additives on their Common Rail engines, until after a few years of imploding High Pressure Fuel Pumps that they finally agreed to warranty they started passing out an additive similar to Diesel Kleen or Power service. Our son bought 2013 Passat TDI and refused to use additives, his HPFP self destructed last year after about 40k miles, they gave him a bottle after the several thousand dollar repair.

I've used PS etc since tank 1 and no problems at about 75k.

Sounds like your son needs to read up on fencing.......

There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by... - Will Rogers at BrainyQuote

Rgds, D.

 

[buickanddeere]

"Winterized" fuel has NOT had the water removed per se. It has had chemicals added to prevent solidification. The winter problem normally has nothing to do with water. For czechsonofagun to have had to replace two "frozen" fuel filters in 2 days he was either talking about the water separator filter (and it is wild/hard to picture that filling right back up with water a day later unless he had terrific water pollution in his fuel tank) or more likely the fuel had turned to gel, which it does below around 10 degrees F. Unless I got fuel from the same supplier every time and confirmed it to work OK down near zero deg F I would never depend on the looseness and unproven nature of seasonal fuel treatment at the sources. I have had auto diesels flat quit due to gel forming below 10 degrees in the mountains of both WV and VT. I prefer the VT heavy equip operator solution of using up to 50/50 kerosene in very cold weather. Some if not all of the additives claim to remove water (meaning they combine with it and allow you to burn it.) That's a good thing too once in a while.


CreekyB: Outstanding insight from an obviously knowledgeable source ! Thanks for that educational info.

Better to just purchase #1 winter diesel for winter use which has had the wax removed. Instead of adding chemicals to #2 diesel in an attempt to slow or stop gelling.
Why not just use what meets spec instead of trying to make something that it is not.

 

[czechsonofagun]

Using summer fuel in the winter , well of course the filters will fill with wax or ice if there is water in the fuel.
Supposed to use winter diesel in the winter that does not have water in it.
Why not prevent the problem instead of allowing the problem then having to treat the symptoms?

Just never had to before. It never froze on me, or it did but I did not need the tractor. Winter two years ago had snow and low temperatures in the same time.

 

[3930dave]

I am a lifelong industrial technician/carpenter, last decade or so I have been working in transit. I currently manage an operation that dispenses about 25,000 gallons per night. 11,000 from the tank farm of 120,000 diesel gallon capacity that is 75 feet from my office. 6x20K gallon diesel tanks and a 20K gallon unleaded tank.

USLD - needed but it is a bane, depending on how fresh it is will often tell how much water will perk out of it. There are several methods for removing the sulphur but one that is most effective and gaining the most ground is adding oxygen then using water to dissolve the sulphur from the ionic solution. This method is preferable because you wind up with byproducts that can be used in other industries as opposed to the older methods which left large unusable waste streams.

So, what does this mean? The centrifuge is going to leave some suspended water, the perking process for evaporation is often lengthened or shortened depending on the volume of orders for the product. Your diesel is getting delivered and dispensed with some water. Algae, fungus, and bacteria become an issue eventually. As tolerances get tighter, injectors get more and more high tech, finer and finer filters are needed to protect them.

Having said all that I use a ton of Power Service products. They just work. I can easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars in roadcalls and downtime if the tanks are not kept clean. Fuel cleanliness is not a huge issue because of the turnover we have in inventory. This also goes for the tanks in the vehicles. I use Bio-Kleen biocide and Clear-Diesel fuel and tank cleaner together. One kills and the other dissolves and disperses. They have some cetane boosters and cold weather additives but I have not had any use for them. Our fleets are designed for USLD and our winter lasts a week, sometimes two if we are lucky enough to have it go that long.

So, if you have a modern diesel, use what you need, not what someone is telling you that you need. If you have an older diesel use the products that you need to ammend the fuel.

There are affordable test kits to test for algae/fungus/bacteria in diesel. I tend to use the culture type, I feel like I get a better view of exactly what and how fast things are growing. That way I can treat accordingly. You will need something to grab bottom samples. Bacon bombs are good for this if you have a clear drop to the bottom of the tank.

There are other products out there, they may be effective, this was the first option while spending tons of money that actually worked for us. Mechanical cleaning of the tanks and fuel polishing can run us better than 30K$ per year, these two chemicals give us a better level of performance, reduced roadcalls and downtime, cleaner tanks for about $9,000 per year. One of the few times saving money saved money in all aspects.

Last thing, getting the water off the bottom of the tank and keeping it off the bottom of the tank will do you better than more treatment. The bugs only grow on the split between water/fuel and where the water hits air. They can grow down sump tubes and the walls of the tanks due to following the water with the condensation effect. Thus keeping your tank full is really another of the best things you can do. Fill up after use and not before use, fill up more frequently. Also, your bugs are not growing while frozen, your biocide will not do it's job while frozen. Treating in freezing temps is a waste of money.

Disclaimer: I do not work for these people, I just give them money for a product that works. The two products I have mentioned do work and are worth the cost in the Central Texas area. YMMV (but I don't think so)

Pardon the grammatical errors, I am fluent in Redneck, English is my second language.

As I recall the origin, Tom Wolfe coined the term Redneck out of respect for how smart the Good 'Ol Boys were that he came across..... that was a great summation of why water is more critical to deal with these days.

You don't need freezing temperatures to get in trouble. The same sized water droplet that could pass through an old mechanical system can easily have enough energy after passing through today's high-pressure fuel rails to blow a larger hole out of the end of a modern low-micron injector. Good business for injector rebuild shops, but not a bill I want to see.....

Rgds, D.

 

[MHarryE]

Statement that North America has some of the worst diesel in the world is a stretch. I have injection pump failure data by region - country and in the case of large countries such as the USA, region. Southeast USA does have some of the worst fuel anywhere in the world. I have pictures of disassembled injection pumps with rusty internal components due to water. Europe has the best fuel by my failure data, but some areas of North America are close. Japan has historically had diesel fuel with low lubricity and, as a consequence, Denso has had some of the most durable components for which I have seen test results. Even they have had to change for ultra high pressure common rail systems. My L5740 has pathetic fuel filtration but it Kees running as long as I keep the water out. My M135GX, however, has 4 filters in series to protect its CRS.

 

[JWR]

Better to just purchase #1 winter diesel for winter use which has had the wax removed. Instead of adding chemicals to #2 diesel in an attempt to slow or stop gelling.
Why not just use what meets spec instead of trying to make something that it is not.

I don't know what #1 winter diesel might be. "#1" fuel is simply kerosene. It does not meet anyone's spec to my knowledge. As I said, heavy equip operators in very cold areas mix #1 (kerosene) and #2 (ordinary diesel fuel) 50/50 for periods of the low temps. I was told by them that kerosene lowers power output and is not as good lubrication-wise. That's probably enough reason not run it except when you really have to.

 

[buickanddeere]

I don't know what #1 winter diesel might be. "#1" fuel is simply kerosene. It does not meet anyone's spec to my knowledge. As I said, heavy equip operators in very cold areas mix #1 (kerosene) and #2 (ordinary diesel fuel) 50/50 for periods of the low temps. I was told by them that kerosene lowers power output and is not as good lubrication-wise. That's probably enough reason not run it except when you really have to.

The northern States and Canada seem to run with #1 Winter diesel from November to March just fine.

 

[CreekyB]

You don't need freezing temperatures to get in trouble. The same sized water droplet that could pass through an old mechanical system can easily have enough energy after passing through today's high-pressure fuel rails to blow a larger hole out of the end of a modern low-micron injector. Good business for injector rebuild shops, but not a bill I want to see.....

Rgds, D.

This is true, but it is almost impossible to remove 100% of the water, you can very well virtually eliminate the possibility of the water making it to the injector but that process as you know brings other service issues, plugged prefilters, maintenance of separators, etc. Clear-Diesel and products like it (that work) are very effective at reducing the chances of damage to injectors from water while reducing the amount of service on filtration systems and separators. They are very effective at suspending a little bit of water in the fuel and doing such a good job of it that you can pass it without plugging or harming anything.

This scenario is on a larger scale and I have the means to measure it but here you go.

I can look at the tank values and see how much water and how much fuel is in the 20K gal. tank. Say 1.13 inches... I get a drop of fresh rushed USLD of 7.5K gal. of fuel, within 12 hours if it has high water content I can see the water at the bottom of the tank rise. I do not like to get above 3" turbulence at the turbine pump at the bottom of the tank will pull water up, that water can plug a water filter on the dispenser but a lot of it gets passed. They are 15 micron. So, you pump the water off the bottom of the tank until you are down around an inch on the monitoring panel. Still will have some suspension, hopefully by this time you have pumped down some volume, treat with Clear-Diesel and call for a delivery to stir things up. No problems noticed. If I do not have the guys monitor this and we let the water go it will slowly go down to right under 2" in the tank. There will be roadcalls on fuel system issues, there can be injector issues as well as injector pump issues. These Tier IV final overland engines are very touchy.

I have heard of issues in regards to gelling wreaking havoc on the new systems as well. It can play a major part of the failure of these low-micron injectors. During the gelling you get some separation and it water expands, ouch. I have not personally witnessed this. If things get cold long enough here in Central Texas long enough to cause these issues I would be more worried about zombies or the end of the world I have not looked into the specs for my Kubota L2501 filters yet but the cummins engines at work run 2 micron filters. Those plug very fast and tend to prevent most injector issues. Getting very large vehicles back in the shop on a hook is costly.

Still the best policy is to keep the water out of the vehicle fuel system, not always possible in all situations. I can run finer water filters but they cut way down on flow, I need 30 gpm + at the nozzle. If you can't keep the water out there is a medicine for that, if you have bugs in the water you left in there, well there is a medicine for that too. If things get too cold for your watered fuel, there is a medicine for that, but I only hear stories about that kind of stuff.

There are lots of stories on the origin of the term redneck, means different things to many people. My great grandfather predated Tom Wolfe a good bit and said the term was used for our family when he was a kid. Hard working farmers that spent the days in the sun, especially around harvest times.