Going to buy a tractor....Between Kubota and JD....which one is more american made

[Martian]

Sorry bout that I changed it. Kioti makes all thier own attachments I don't know about the implements nor do I care.

Looks as though I was misinformed, not a big deal, no need for the personal attacks though.

 

[art]

I know I read somewhere that Kioti does NOT make their own backhoes. Can't find it now. JD does NOT make their backhoes, but DO make their front end loaders. Unlike Kioti who outsources ALL of their 3ph implements JD makes quite a few of their own and outsources some to Woods. Not to mention their farm equipment (balers and such) is made by themselves.



To me this means more overhead. More overhead is NOT always a good thing. Companies need to work on their specialty, Kubota can design a tractor. When they get into mining they are not going to be as efficient with the extra overhead.



I would love to think that any company can make a quality product at a reputable price, but it's not possible. Think what would Dodge trucks be today if they all of a sudden decided they no longer wanted Cummins and were going to make their own engines. Most people who buy Dodge trucks don't say they bought a Dodge, they say they bought a Cummins. In this case outsourcing the engine increases sales and gives a higher quality product.

Don't get me wrong, a product built solely in-house would be awesome. But you cannot name one product in the world that is made solely by one company. It just can't happen. There are way to many factors of production that would allow one company to make a product start to finish. And if they did it would cost 100X more than any other comparable.

You can argue the principle that outsourcing is bad and results in less control of the product, but that's the same as someone saying that I want a tractor made in the USA. In the end it has no effect on the individual as parts are outsourced all around the globe and come together in a central location where it is assembled. The assembly is the weakest part of the entire process of building a product, but yet people think it's the most important.

And your second to last last statement further more proves my point. Companies must work in their specialty. When they get to big it doesn't work out well. That's why they must outsource so they can focus on what they need to do instead of focusing on small parts of the supply chain that may screw up their end product. GM at one time had 9 different brands that all tried to market to different consumer bases inside the states alone. All of that overhead on the different brands caused prices to go up and GM to almost go under. Consolidating to what they can do they now are more profitable and are on the upswing.

My only grudge if you would really call it that is what it changes for us and the ability for me to treat my customers as I would want to be treated. When people use their machines to make a living and they are broken and not able to be fixed because of outsourced parts or the repairs put extra load on dealers because of it, no I don't like down time, do you? I do see it day to day and I do have to try to explain the process to concerned people.

 

[Martian]

My only grudge if you would really call it that is what it changes for us and the ability for me to treat my customers as I would want to be treated. When people use their machines to make a living and they are broken and not able to be fixed because of outsourced parts or the repairs put extra load on dealers because of it, no I don't like down time, do you? I do see it day to day and I do have to try to explain the process to concerned people.

Sounds more like an infrastructure problem to me. Say we have two 50 year old tractors, one has a part outsourced, one is in-house. Don't expect that 50 year old in-house machine to still be around just like the 50 year old outsourced. Both would be remanufactured original product, whether it be individually or in an assembly line of sorts - which may be outsourced itself. The real problem would be whether the parent company keeps enough tabs on the inventory of its product, what parts are flying off the shelves, which aren't and whether they have enough stock to last and how much they should produce and how to get it to the dealership in a timely manner.

In my opinion Deere is second to none in this category, Kubota is catching up but still has a ways to go. The longest I've waited for any part was a couple of days and that's because I didn't have time to get to the dealership to pick it up!

I had to order a new starter for my Farmall Cub, definitely not 100% original, but remanufactured (which means it doesn't matter if it was in-house or outsourced originally) was received in a timely manner and works just fine. I may never know if the original starter was in-house or outsourced as NEITHER of the companies that produced it originally would be the exact same as produced this starter.

 

[rtimgray]

One of the reasons that I don't own a Deere anymore (nor do I own a Kubota) is that I couldn't get parts from my JD 2010 tractor (this is the model 2010, not the year 2010). As near as I can tell, the 2010 was one of JD's poorer efforts, but practically every part that I needed to get I had to either get from an aftermarket supplier or a junkyard.

Now obviously this tractor was from the '60s, so I'm not really faulting JD for no longer supporting it. I wouldn't expect any manufacturer to fully support any tractor that 50 years old. However, I'll say my experience was made worse by the JD dealer I attempted to deal with when obtaining parts, and that drove me away from that brand.

Outsourcing is definately a tricky subject, and I don't think that there is any one correct answer. The company that I work for sources materials and equipment from different vendors, and we are also the supplier for customers that sometimes use us to make their product, and sometimes they make it themselves. When we manufacture their product, we manufacture it to their specifications and they check the product. Of course they can't check every product, but do enough to make sure that we maintain their specs throughout the production run. So long as they keep their specs for a given product, they can have another manufacturer with the same capabilities make the same product, and the odds are the end user will not know where the product actually came from.

Good luck and take care.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

In my opinion Deere is second to none in this category, Kubota is catching up but still has a ways to go. The longest I've waited for any part was a couple of days and that's because I didn't have time to get to the dealership to pick it up!

Deere is a model for the very problem Art and I are trying to convay. They resold a line of hay mergers from Miller a few years ago, they stopped selling that line and when they did cut off all parts support for those models in their entireity. Fine for us, as well stock and sell the parts for the OEM units... but they are not available from Green any longer, not because the parts where not available, I'd guess because they never sold enough of the units to justify the expense of the supply chain. These things where not cheap either, 50-80k a pop! All the frontier stuff OEM'ed by Woods is also a great example of the "cost savings" that can be had. Any frontier owners can buy parts from Woods for 30% less than though Deere, and 9/10 times you could have bought the same implement for less in the first place.

by no means are they the only ones going down this road, we watch CNH do more and more of it every year and know first hand what it does on the back side. Already we're having problems getting implemenst for ISM made compacts. Anyone who bought a Cub Cadet compact OEM'ed by someone else can tell you all about how well thats gone for them once MTD moved on to the next manufacturer. We tried to get a rear remote two years after they stopped with the OEM and could not. The mess caused by this is a large part of the reason we stopped selling Cub Cadet stuff backed by Kioti/Mahindra/TYM.

 

[Martian]

Deere is a model for the very problem Art and I are trying to convay. They resold a line of hay mergers from Miller a few years ago, they stopped selling that line and when they did cut off all parts support for those models in their entireity. Fine for us, as well stock and sell the parts for the OEM units... but they are not available from Green any longer, not because the parts where not available, I'd guess because they never sold enough of the units to justify the expense of the supply chain. These things where not cheap either, 50-80k a pop! All the frontier stuff OEM'ed by Woods is also a great example of the "cost savings" that can be had. Any frontier owners can buy parts from Woods for 30% less than though Deere, and 9/10 times you could have bought the same implement for less in the first place.

by no means are they the only ones going down this road, we watch CNH do more and more of it every year and know first hand what it does on the back side. Already we're having problems getting implemenst for ISM made compacts. Anyone who bought a Cub Cadet compact OEM'ed by someone else can tell you all about how well thats gone for them once MTD moved on to the next manufacturer. We tried to get a rear remote two years after they stopped with the OEM and could not. The mess caused by this is a large part of the reason we stopped selling Cub Cadet stuff backed by Kioti/Mahindra/TYM.

I here you loud and clear. But I have to ask the question, you two are obviously more educated on the matter than me tractors and their history of models. I've never heard of the Miller, but as you suggest there were poor sales. Is it not possible that even if Deere did these models in-house they wouldn't stock parts because of the poor sales? I don't see the problem as outsourcing, but the sales themselves. Not trying to pick a fight, just providing the counter argument.

I also see that not backing a product they sold is just a poor reflection on a company (Deere included). In my opinion we need to stick it to manufacturers to make parts for what they sell outsourced, or not the problem exists.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I don't see the problem as outsourcing, but the sales themselves. Not trying to pick a fight, just providing the counter argument.

I'd suspect there where poor sales under Deere, the but not for the units themsevles. The company has been sold to FAST since, but they still build basicly the same mergers today. Its not that the company is not around and things are not available, they are simply choosing not to support them any longer. There is always the chance that the same happens with all the stuff they get from Woods, Befco?, who knows even Yanmar. Like I said we already can't get mower decks for ISM built tractors from two years ago from CNH!

I think the root of the problem is the same, its best to buy from a company that builds their product rather than one who is simply remarketing stuff? As a customer you have no idea how sales are going to pan out, thus the best bet is to buy from the guy who actually builds the product in the first place.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I don't see the problem as outsourcing, but the sales themselves. Not trying to pick a fight, just providing the counter argument.

I'd suspect there where poor sales under Deere, the but not for the units themsevles. The company has been sold to FAST since, but they still build basicly the same mergers today. Its not that the company is not around and things are not available, they are simply choosing not to support them any longer. There is always the chance that the same happens with all the stuff they get from Woods, Befco?, who knows even Yanmar. Like I said we already can't get mower decks for ISM built tractors from two years ago from CNH!

I think the root of the problem is the same, its best to buy from a company that builds their product rather than one who is simply remarketing stuff? As a customer you have no idea how sales are going to pan out, thus the best bet is to buy from the guy who actually builds the product in the first place.

 

[BleedGreen]

Neil,
Is this the product you are referring to?

In the 1980s, the company began building a line of hay and forage products under the Miller Pro brand,
and the focus of the company migrated away from retail to manufacturing. The Miller Pro hay and
forage products included forage boxes, forage blowers, rotary rakes, and pull‐type sprayers.
Additionally, the following brands were added to the Miller stable through development or acquisition
over the next two decades:
Miller acquires the Badger line of hay and forage farmstead products.
Miller develops the Miller Nitro high clearance self propelled sprayers.
Miller offers a line of hay and forage products through John Deere dealers under the private
label Victor.

 

[Martian]

I'd suspect there where poor sales under Deere, the but not for the units themsevles. The company has been sold to FAST since, but they still build basicly the same mergers today. Its not that the company is not around and things are not available, they are simply choosing not to support them any longer. There is always the chance that the same happens with all the stuff they get from Woods, Befco?, who knows even Yanmar. Like I said we already can't get mower decks for ISM built tractors from two years ago from CNH!

I think the root of the problem is the same, its best to buy from a company that builds their product rather than one who is simply remarketing stuff? As a customer you have no idea how sales are going to pan out, thus the best bet is to buy from the guy who actually builds the product in the first place.

I still see it as a sales problem. How many mower decks did you sell? I know I've only seen a handful of NH CUT's around here. Didn't see one of them with a MMM. Don't you think if they flew off the shelves that they would put a little more effort into stocking them? Also how do you see it being different than NH outsourcing the the deck itself to one place, the blades to another, the belts to another, the linkage to another and then NH assembling it all. In the end that is what Kubota is doing... What happens when their part suppliers stop doing business? Your in your same scenario. Although I don't see ever having a problem getting parts for something that sells good. It would be a bad reflection on the company and decrease sales.