Grapples, remotes and snow blowers...

[MadReferee]

my understanding is that a "set" of remotes means 2 connection outlets for the backhoe hydraulics, right? What is the difference between "remotes" and a "power beyond" kit?

A set of remotes is a pair of work ports from an aux valve that is controlled by a fender mounted lever. A power beyond kit adds two connections that break the hydraulic circuit so that you can connect another aux valve(s) in series with the circuit. When not in use the pb connectors usually must be connected together to complete the series circuit.

Also, the two sets of hydro lines that control backhoe extension and bucket curl take either 2 controls (bidirectional) to control those lines or one control that can move in four directions (like the loader joystick), correct?

It really depends on how the linkage is setup. You have one spool for each function. A joystick usually controls two spools so that means instead of 2 levers, one for each spool/function, you have a joystick that controls 2 functions.

If the above is true, and you add a set of remotes to control a backhoe, why is there only one bi-directional lever on the fender when there are two lines to control? Is one line just left "uncontrolled"?

A set of remotes controls only one function. Depending on the setting of the lever, one connection is the inlet and the other is the outlet.

Why wouldn't there be two controls or at least one control that moves in four directions to control both hydraulic lines? Also, if there is only one bi-directional control on the fender, how would you control a rear blade with both tilt and left/right movement? See my prior question on which blades operate that way, do woods RB-72 for example?

You can't control two functions with a single set of remotes. Two distinct functions requires 2 spools from a valve, thus 2 sets of remotes. Your scenerio requires 2 remotes whether you have a joystick to control them or not. Depending on the direction of the control lever, one connector is the inlet and the other is the outlet.

Given all that, I agree that a fender bi-directional control is probably fine for the grapple open/close function.

I think you will find that operation of the grapple from a fender mounted remote will be difficult and cumbersome to operate. You will not be able to operate the loader joystick and the grapple together since you have to remove you hand from the loader joystick to use the grapple.

The 2 least expensive and easiest to use routes for a grapple are a diverter, followed by the electric/hydraulic solenoid valve, even if you have remotes. You can always use the remotes for things like a hydraulic top link or to control a cylinder on an implement. Using remotes to control a grapple with hoses running from the rear of the tractor to the front of the loader is, in my opinion, the Rube Goldberg way. Not a very clean installation.

Finally, I think you are still a little bit confused as to what a remote really is and how it works. I hoped the above clears it up.

 

[buyerjohn]

thanks ref for the input and clarity...let's see if i have it now!

A hydraulic loop can power one function unless that loop is tapped into with a valve which will create a second loop off the original loop. A lever controls one loop, a joystick can control two.

A set of remotes (a pair) provides the connection points for one inlet and one outlet of a single hydro loop therefore controlling one function.

So, how is a hoe typically plumbed? Does the hoe take it's hydro power off one loop and then split that into two loops (by adding a valve?) so that it can power the hoes' 2 different functions? Why wouldn't a hoe always be plumbed via a pair of remotes so that when it's disconnected, the available loop can be used by another implement? cost?

I think a big part of my confusion was (assuming that I now understand!) created by the use of the term "remotes" ...so what are the remotes (as in plural)? The 2 physical connections, one for inlet and one for outlet in the same loop? Are these similar to air hose connections on a compressor except they are fluid filled?

 

[IslandTractor]

my understanding is that a "set" of remotes means 2 connection outlets for the backhoe hydraulics, right? What is the difference between "remotes" and a "power beyond" kit? .

BuyerJohn, I understand your confusion. I had no idea I even had rear remotes until someone (?highbeam) pointed out that's what my little yellow lever was controlling. Remotes are separate controlable hydraulic outlets (always a pair so if someone says two remotes they mean 4 connections/line for two separate functions). A Power beyond connection is simply tapping into the hydraulic system and it is always either on or off. The powerbeyond on a ck30 is somewhere under the tractor and difficult to get at without being on the ground. Rear remotes are generally right next to the top link or other convenient spot. For purposes of a BH there is zero functional difference between power beyond and rear remotes....the rear remotes shine in other ways, like operating a grapple or blade or box blade...things you cannot do with power beyond. A backhoe can use either because power to the backhoe is always "on"...you control the backhoe with controls on the backhoe but hydraulic power is always on and you don't control any backhoe function from the regular tractor controls. With powerbeyond you simply set the powerbeyond to on. With rear remotes you take the switch out of neutral and put it into either the A or B position. (A or B may sound confusing but really you would always put it into the A position...if you put it in the B position the BH will work fine but the controls will be reversed). While you could in theory give the BH partial power by feathering the rear remote lever in practice you just put it into the on position. Thus once you connect the BH to the rear remote (both hoses) you set the remote control lever to engaged A position and that's it...all other controls are on the BH itself and you don't touch the rear remote lever again.

Also, the two sets of hydro lines that control backhoe extension and bucket curl take either 2 controls (bidirectional) to control those lines or one control that can move in four directions (like the loader joystick), correct?

If the above is true, and you add a set of remotes to control a backhoe, why is there only one bi-directional lever on the fender when there are two lines to control? Is one line just left "uncontrolled"? .

As noted above, the two lines from the rear remotes simply provide power to the BH. All BH controls are actually on the BH itself. You simply move the "bidirectional lever" to either the A or B position. So long as it is not in the neutral (off) position the BH is getting juice. Of course in practice you'd always put it in the A position as if you put the lever in the B position the BH controls would work but would be reversed.

Why wouldn't there be two controls or at least one control that moves in four directions to control both hydraulic lines? Also, if there is only one bi-directional control on the fender, how would you control a rear blade with both tilt and left/right movement? See my prior question on which blades operate that way, do woods RB-72 for example?

I think most of this should be clear from the other answers above but you are correct that to control TWO sets of rear remotes you would need two levers. One to control tilt and one for the other for left/right movement. Each rear remote has its own control lever with bidirectional and neutral positions.

Photo #1 shows yellow rear remote control lever on fender inboard of black position control lever. Photo #2 shows rear remotes with two hydraulic lines attached that are looping up and then down below the tractor...these are the lines that control the grapple on my tractor. BH lines would attach to this same set of connectors.

 

[IslandTractor]

I think you will find that operation of the grapple from a fender mounted remote will be difficult and cumbersome to operate. You will not be able to operate the loader joystick and the grapple together since you have to remove you hand from the loader joystick to use the grapple.

I will disagree with this one statement. With a grapple you really don't have a reason to lift/drop or curl/dump at the same time as you open or close the grapple. Therefore there is no penalty to the half a second it takes to let go of the FEL control joystick and reach back for the rear remote control. In practice you have the grapple open when you are intending to grab something and you can open the grapple well in advance. You then use the motion of the tractor and up/down+curl functions of the FEL to get into position and load the grapple. You then stop, take your hand off the FEL control, and close the grapple. At no time is is really necessary to have your hand on the FEL control while you are opening/closing the grapple. Once you get used to it there is only a tiny delay and you don't bother looking for the grapple control lever your hand just finds it.

The cost of diverters and other systems are upwards of $400-500. If you have rear remotes the cost is only the extension hoses and fittings to bring the hydraulics up to the grapple. You'd need the same number of fittings if you were using a diverter so the real cost of a grapple is only the cost of the hose itself. Peanuts.

 

[MadReferee]

I will disagree with this one statement. With a grapple you really don't have a reason to lift/drop or curl/dump at the same time as you open or close the grapple. Therefore there is no penalty to the half a second it takes to let go of the FEL control joystick and reach back for the rear remote control. In practice you have the grapple open when you are intending to grab something and you can open the grapple well in advance. You then use the motion of the tractor and up/down+curl functions of the FEL to get into position and load the grapple. You then stop, take your hand off the FEL control, and close the grapple. At no time is is really necessary to have your hand on the FEL control while you are opening/closing the grapple. Once you get used to it there is only a tiny delay and you don't bother looking for the grapple control lever your hand just finds it.

The cost of diverters and other systems are upwards of $400-500. If you have rear remotes the cost is only the extension hoses and fittings to bring the hydraulics up to the grapple. You'd need the same number of fittings if you were using a diverter so the real cost of a grapple is only the cost of the hose itself. Peanuts.

I believe that the majority of people who have grapples and those that don't will disagree with you. It is sooo much easier to operate a grapple using a swtich on the joystick than it is to stop loader motion, remove hand, place hand on fendser lever, operate grapple, remove hand, place on loader, and do more loader movement. It may take some time to get used to but it is clearly not a very efficient way to get work done. Plus, you tie up a remote, that could be used for something else, with long hoses going up to the loader bucket. Not a very clean installation.

 

[MadReferee]

A hydraulic loop can power one function unless that loop is tapped into with a valve which will create a second loop off the original loop. A lever controls one loop, a joystick can control two.

A set of remotes (a pair) provides the connection points for one inlet and one outlet of a single hydro loop therefore controlling one function.

The hydraulic circuit on your tractor is an open center series circuit that starts with the tank, to the pump, to the 2-spool loader valve, optionally to a single or multi spool aux valve for remotes, then on to the 3pt valve and back to the tank. Valve spools are what controls the functions, one function per spool and each spool has two connections or work ports. A valve block may have one to many spools. Activating a valve's spool via a single lever or joysick will cause fluid to flow into one of that spools ports then to an implement cylinder and back out thru the other port back into the valve and into the series circuit. Aux valve spools are typically called remotes, each having a pair of work port connections plumbed to the rear of the tractor. One port is the inlet and the other is the outlet depending on the position o the spool lever.

So, how is a hoe typically plumbed? Does the hoe take it's hydro power off one loop and then split that into two loops (by adding a valve?) so that it can power the hoes' 2 different functions? Why wouldn't a hoe always be plumbed via a pair of remotes so that when it's disconnected, the available loop can be used by another implement? cost?

Hoes can be plumbed one of two ways. First the hoe's valve spool block can be connected using a set of remotes (one spool from an aux valve). In order to get flow to the hoe the lever for the remote must be activated in the correct direction. Usually people tie the lever open using a bungie cord. The second way to connect a hoe is to use a power beyond kit. The PB kit typically breaks the main open center series circuit with 2 connections. The hoe's valve block is then plumbed into these connections thus putting the hoe valve block in series with loader valve, any aux remote valves and the 3pt. When the how is disconnected the two PB connections must be jumpered together with a hose to allow the series circuit to complete. There are several ways that manufacturers do this and some ways will disable the 3pt. Your dealer should be able to explain all these options to you. If he can't then find another knowledgable dealer.

I think a big part of my confusion was (assuming that I now understand!) created by the use of the term "remotes" ...so what are the remotes (as in plural)? The 2 physical connections, one for inlet and one for outlet in the same loop? Are these similar to air hose connections on a compressor except they are fluid filled?

Simply put, a "set of remotes" is the term used to describe the two work port connectors from an aux valve spool that are plumbed to the rear of the tractor that allow a "remote" double acting cylinder on an implement to be activated.

 

[buyerjohn]

thanks island and ref - excellent education! this thread should by marked for all newbies to learn ...

So, it seems that cost being no issue, one pair of remotes for the hoe and one diverter for the grapple would be the best solution. The prices I have are $675 for a diverter installation and $325 for one pair of remotes installation (no hoses to front). Are these reasonable numbers? I think the $675 is but am not sure about the remotes cost. What part of the remotes already exist on a standard tractor? Do you have to run those 2 outlets to the rear of the tractor off a valve somewhere and also install the control lever on the fender? Or is part of that loop already set up by Kioti?

Island, do you have a hoe? If so, are there times when you wish you had a hoe on the back with the grapple or is the rotary cutter the better implement of choice when using the grapple?

The pictures helped...the yellow remote lever I find interesting because it's mounted in an already existing "slot"...do manufacturers leave slots open on the fender for exactly this purpose?

Thanks again for all the help. John.

 

[MadReferee]

So, it seems that cost being no issue, one pair of remotes for the hoe and one diverter for the grapple would be the best solution. The prices I have are $675 for a diverter installation and $325 for one pair of remotes installation (no hoses to front). Are these reasonable numbers? I think the $675 is but am not sure about the remotes cost. What part of the remotes already exist on a standard tractor? Do you have to run those 2 outlets to the rear of the tractor off a valve somewhere and also install the control lever on the fender? Or is part of that loop already set up by Kioti?

That $675 for a diverter installation seems a way bit high since the diverter itself is only $200. See PineRidge's post showing how he installed it himself. It's not hard.

No part of the remotes comes standard. The Kioti kit includes everything needed including to install them, the valve, the lever, the plumbing and the connectors. It is not a very difficult thing to install but you might have to remove the rear wheel and fender to get better access.

...the yellow remote lever I find interesting because it's mounted in an already existing "slot"...do manufacturers leave slots open on the fender for exactly this purpose?

Those that offer integral rear remotes most often have the fender slots already there. Kubota, New Holland and Kioti all do depending on the tractor model.

 

[CBB]

We have been using the rear mount snowblower for years with chains on the agricultural tires. I like ag tires. Anyhow, with a cab,it is not really a problem as described below. Without a cab, the blowing mist from the snow can freeze your face and eyes. I actually got my contacts frozen into my eyes one day using the rear snow blower and had to stop wearing them for several years. Lasik surgery has given me 20/20 since but the cab is a great investment with heater...so are tire chains. Be aware that tire chains don't fit with the woods backhoe mount on a CK20. I don't know about the CK 30. No perfect solutions available yet from tractor manufacturers.
My .02...get the rear mount snowblower with a cab and either a sander or chains..either will work.

I have a CK20 with the Sims cab and a rear mount 60" snowblower. My driveway is about 400' long and a hill with large areas in front and side of my house. Looking back is not a problem at all. I can sit sideways in the seat comfortably which leads to barely turning your head to look back. Having the position control 3pt hitch makes for great small adjustments on the go if you are digging too deep or not deep enough. A plowed driveway looks messy and leaves huge banks all around. MY driveway always as a very nice straight cut edge and the snow is spread throughout the yard. This also makes for faster melting and water dispursement in the spring. Less mud and flooding. The cab with heat is great. In below 0 temps, I can be out in the tractor in just a sweatshirt and stay plenty warm. The window wipers come in handy, both front and rear.

One big factor is gas. At $3/ gallon you will waste a good $10-$15 or more of gas each storm plowing with a truck. $15 of diesel gets me through 4-5 large storms at about 2-2.5 hours each storm.

As far as sanding, I am going to take an electric hopper-type sander (as shown) and strap it to the front end loader that will be plugged into a 12v power supply from the tractor. This way I can sand as I snowblow. EarthWay ATV 12 Volt Broadcast Spreader — 100-Lb. Capacity, Model# M30 | Salt Spreaders | Northern Tool + Equipment

Good Luck with the tractor purchase.

 

[Dmace]

I have loaded Industrials, and have yet to find the need for tire chains. My driveway is about a 8% slope. It makes sense though, that the AG tires would have less traction on snow, since there is so little rubber touching the ground.

Food for thought.