Hydraulic auger question

[beesnstuff]

I have a JD5083e that suppose to have 15.9 GPM pump flow on rear remotes (~22 GPM total). Open system.
From what I understand the valves (FEL, rear) are in series so the total pressure (~2800 psi) will be shared ???

Not sure how using loader up/down movement will affect the flow/pressure to the hydraulic drive which will be connected to the rear remotes.

I'm considering Belltec (htls6k or m300) OR Danuser (EP10 or Pro 1025H) drives.

HTLS6K | Belltec Industries Inc.
NC300, M300, H300 | Belltec Industries Inc.

Model EP10 | Danuser
Model 1025H | Danuser


htls6k should spin my auger at 25 rpm and deliver more than 5000 ft-lbs of torque.


My questions are:

1. Would 25 rpm be too slow to drill holes? Or would it be of benefit in case I get stones and the bit would be easier
to control at such low speed.

2. Would the flow to the drive be affected by the operation of the loader? i.e. in open system would the pressure
/flow remain the same when I use loader and auger at the same time.

3. Which drive would you recommend for my tractor? EP10, Pro 1025H, M300, Htls6K?

4. I see the hoses I have on the tractor are 1/2" ID and about 3/4" OD, what threads are the hose endings on JD tractors, or any tractors? 1/2" NPTF?. Just asking as I'm not sure what to order from discounthydraulichose.

5. If I order 2" hex drive from Belltec, can I use bits from other manufacturers? Are the 2" hex, bolts standarized so that the bit will be interchangeable between different manufacturer's drives?

I'm planning to get a rock bit, my drilling soil will be rocky gravel, occasional 8-15" rocks.

Sorry for asking so many newbie questions, but the dealers don't seem to answer them. They want to sell whatever they can. You want A? We have it. You want B? no problem. Is A better than B? Well, they both are good, etc.

Thanks,
Peter

 

[J_J]

If the auger is in use, using the loader will take fluid from the pump flow.

If you put the loader to neutral, the auger will get full flow.

Pressure will be determined by the load.

 

[oldnslo]

1. Would 25 rpm be too slow to drill holes? Or would it be of benefit in case I get stones and the bit would be easier
to control at such low speed.

Lower speed equals higher torque but less impact. 25 RPM seems like it would be a little slow for 8 0r 10" auager but probably good for 24 - 30" bit

I see the hoses I have on the tractor are 1/2" ID and about 3/4" OD, what threads are the hose endings on JD tractors, or any tractors? 1/2" NPTF?. Just asking as I'm not sure what to order from discounthydraulic hose.

Typically John Deere uses SAE O-ring ends on their hoses.


Not sure but would suspect that 2" hex would be universal.

 

[Tx Jim]

IMHO slower rpm's for digging holes is better as it gives less opportunity for auger to corkscrew into ground. Granted on hyd auger one can reverse hyd flow if needed to back auger back out of hole. Most newer tractors I've seen have either ORB or JIC fittings on hoses.

 

[J_J]

The potential torque of a hyd auger is based on the cu in of the motor and pressure.

Actual torque is the load imposed on the auger. Use hyd gauge to determine if at max torque.

If you want the max torque, drive it in hard with down pressure until the relief valve squeals.

The torque should be the same through the rpm range if max load.

I have a hyd auger for my Power-Trac, and my valve has a lever to control flow.

The speed that you should use is the speed that will let the auger cut steady and be able to extract the loose material. You might need certain kind of teeth on the cutting end .

I use a fast speed here in Florida as most of what we have is sand/topsoil. Spin fast and pull auger up quickly.

However in tough ground material such as hard clay or shale, or rocks, you will have to determine the best for you.

 

[beesnstuff]

Thanks guys for your replies. Much appreciated.

In my case, I have maybe 1-2' of top soil followed by clay or gravel+rocks, some spots are more clay, others are rocks with some gravel, so the higher (max) torque, slow drilling will be better than fast dancing on stones.

Do you have any experience with post hole drivers in gravel/rocky soil? Not sure if I should go with the hydraulic driver or digger. My thinking is that driver might not be optimal for my rocky gravel conditions, i.e. posts will break or not go straight. Also driver is more of a 2 man operation. One on tractor, one on the ground, no?

The auger setup is coming close to 5K, almost the same as a good driver.

 

[FatTire]

Thanks guys for your replies. Much appreciated.

In my case, I have maybe 1-2' of top soil followed by clay or gravel+rocks, some spots are more clay, others are rocks with some gravel, so the higher (max) torque, slow drilling will be better than fast dancing on stones.

Do you have any experience with post hole drivers in gravel/rocky soil? Not sure if I should go with the hydraulic driver or digger. My thinking is that driver might not be optimal for my rocky gravel conditions, i.e. posts will break or not go straight. Also driver is more of a 2 man operation. One on tractor, one on the ground, no?

The auger setup is coming close to 5K, almost the same as a good driver.

Your ground situation is somewhat similar to ours but my tractor has only about 9 gpm available to the rear remotes. I went with a Danuser EP6 on a SSQA. Yes, hex augers are interchangeable between manufacturers. I suggest calling Danuser. I was set on a purchasing a rock bit, but they actually talked me out of it and I saved quite a bit of money.

My main use is fencing. Drilling through solid rock is VERY slow -- it is much faster to move over and start a new hole than to drill through a rock. If I want to drill a 36" deep hole and hit rock down at say 2 feet, I will spent some time with a rock bar and see if I can dig it out by hand. Usually I can not just "go around it" by broadening the hole with the auger because there just isn't enough torque. The EP6 has less torque than the EP10, and it does sometimes jam between rocks, but you just reverse it and it pops back out. I do not notice any difference in speed or torque based on the amount of down pressure that I apply with the loader. This is the only auger I've over owned so I can't compare to other manufactuers, but the Danuser product is well made and the company was helpful. I purchased through a local dealer, they were "OK" but nothing special.

 

[J_J]

Are you buying retail or do you want to make a hyd auger.

You simply get a large cu in hyd motor and adapt a fitting that will take a hex, round, or square shaft.

A hanging mount for the loader bucket with down pressure and an auger of your choice, at much less money.

The second picture uses a hydwheel motor .

 

[beesnstuff]

Are you buying retail or do you want to make a hyd auger.

You simply get a large cu in hyd motor and adapt a fitting that will take a hex, round, or square shaft.

A hanging mount for the loader bucket with down pressure and an auger of your choice, at much less money.

The second picture uses a hydwheel motor .

What hydraulic motor would you recommend? 2" hex adapter? Valve?
The loader mount I can weld.

Never done hydraulics projects, so go easy on me.

GPM = Motor Displacement x Motor RPM ÷ 231

Motor Displacement = 231*GPM/RPM
16*231/30 = 336 cu

Torque=PSI x Motor Displacement ÷ (2 x π)/12

2800*336*(2 x π)/12= 471 ft-lbs

But motors have much smaller displacement, so I'd need to run it at higher RPM and have a gearbox to slow down the bit? On your picture you mounted the bit on the motor shaft, right?

What is wrong with my math? How can I achieve 4000 ft-lbs at 20 RPM from 16 GPM? That is what Belltec claims to do. Is this just marketing mumbo jumbo?

57.4 cu in CHARLYNN 10000 SERIES MOTOR 119-1035

would be about 2000 ft-lbs and 60 RPM @ 16 GPM

 

[J_J]

If you had a 2500 psi pump putting out 15 GPM, that motor would turn at 60 rpm, and develop about 1904 ft lbs.

This is what you have to work with.

JD 5083

Hydraulics:
Type: open center
Pressure: 2828 psi [195.0 bar]
Rear valves: 1 to 3
Mid valves: 2 (optional)
Pump flow: 15.9 gpm [60.2 lpm]
Total flow: 22.5 gpm [85.2 lpm]
Steering flow: 6.6 gpm [25.0 lpm]
Steering press.: 1900 psi [131.0 ba