Hydraulic Tip 'N Tilt - OK, Top 'N Tilt

[markcg2000]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

Bird,
I don't have my manual with me, but I studied it a lot following your progress/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. Of course, it's a JD....

According to the flow diagrams, the oil flows from the pump towards my 3PH. If there is nothing else, it routes to the 3PH valve, but if there are additional ports required, a Plug needs to be installed inside the tractor. The plug blocks the oil from going directly to the 3PH and it now goes out the, well, for lack of a better term, "PB" of the tractor. Without the plug the oil would take the easy path through the 3PH and never develope pressure at the "PB". After doing whatever it's supposed to (ie SCV) it is returned and then routes where it would have gone without the plug.

There is a system relief valve that dumps to the tank. There is also a valve relief valve that bypasses the "PB" and goes to the 3PH. If the latter is triggered, the pressure could continue to be seen at whatever required it, like, in your case, the HST. I bet the adapter plumbs into a pressure line, rather than giving access to the "t" inside the 3PH assembly, like mine does.

<font color=green>mark</font color=green>

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

Mark, the hydraulic outlet that I used is on the side of the tractor right beside where the 3-point hitch cylinder is, so I guess I assumed it was after the HST (and of course I could be completely wrong about that), but the only time I hear what I am now assuming is an open relief valve is when I have the hydro pedal depressed. Haven't had time to do any checking today, but I'll eventually get around to it.

Bird

 

[ronjhall]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

<font color=blue>I've used tractor hydraulics a good bit; but I've never worked on or altered any before, so it's puzzling to say the least.</font color=blue>/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

Bird, The picture you scanned of the rear set of ports is the same as mine. One is the pressure port. The other is the return line. The return line dumps right back to the transmission. I did some reading in Kubota WSM today. The HST pump is run by the engine crank shaft though the clutch directly into the HST assembly. It seems odd that the HST would be acting up. You may be stalling the engine against the relief valve on the rear hydraulics.
I wrote up a whole explanation of how I believe an open centered valve should work. Then I remembered how I checked out the angle cylinders and valves for my front blade. I hooked up my air compressor to the valve and energized the valve lever to see how the air exited the different ports. Then hooked up the cylinder, pressure and return lines to make them work.. If you do this. Make sure you drain the oil out of everything.
You may have the opposite problem that I had. I was trying to hook up an open center valve to the FEL valve. Something will not work on the FEL no matter how the open center valve is piped. That was why I had to purchase the rear hydraulic outlet.
One of the reasons for using the Power beyond type valves ( sombody had a name for this type of valve) is that you can operate more than one valve at a time. Like raising your FEL and rolling back the Bucket at the same time.
One of my earlier posts expressed a concern about running the three hoses from the FEL valve all the way back to the Tip & Tilt valve. But from what LarryT/w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif showed us in his pictures it should not be as big a problem.
I intend to use my rear port to power angle my rake and back blade.
I'm very interested in how you resolve your problems. I'm collecting the parts together to assemble the whole system. Hope I will be able to use your trials and tribulations to allow me to make it work without problems./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[ronjhall]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

<font color=blue>Today, I got the top link shortened about an inch..</font color=blue>
Bird, I almost missed this./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I measured the length of my top link the other day. It measured 18.5"./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif Pin center to pin center. I believe the Tisco cylinder is 20". How did you shorten the cylinder. Can you take a picture to help.

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

Ron, like I said, I'm puzzled by all this. I've been reading the WSM myself this afternoon, but can't claim to understand it all. <font color=blue>I hooked up my air compressor to the valve and energized the valve lever to see how the air exited the different ports.</font color=blue> Whew, I AM getting slow in my old age; can't imagine why I hadn't already thought of and done that./w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Have you ever put your hand on your FEL valve after running the tractor awhile to see how hot it feels? There are a couple of other factors I have to consider and check out. There is the possibility that I don't have a problem with the tractor; just with my brain. I can't recall ever putting my hand on the valve when the tractor was fully warmed up before, but touching the new valve accidentally and thinking it felt awfully hot to me, so then I put my hand on the loader valve and it also felt awfully hot day before yesterday (and I should have gotten a thermometer to see just how hot, but didn't). I just assumed it was too hot because I could hear a whine that I've not had before and think it sounds like a relief valve open. So, yesterday after I took all the new stuff off and got everything back like it was originally, I tilled the garden again, without hearing that whine. But when I finished and put my hand on the FEL valve, it felt just as hot as before (maybe it's normal). The temperature gauge for the engine temperature ran normally all the time, both ways; with and without the new valve. And I had no problem with the performance or operation of anything; hydraulics, HST, 3-point, etc. Everything worked normally. And then there's one other little factor; I wear hearing aids in both ears and I sent one of them in for an overhaul a couple of weeks ago; ought to get it back Monday. So maybe it was my imagination./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

So, sometime in the next couple of days, I'm going to run the tractor long enough to get it thoroughly warmed up, then I'm going to take it's temperature in the hydraulic oil, AND I'm going to play with that valve and my air compressor, thanks to you. I may decide to just put everything back on again, but get my wife or someone else to listen to it both ways and see if they hear anything different, and then when I see what the hydraulic oil temperature is without the new stuff, compare it to the temperature with the new stuff.

Hey, I may have just been making a fool of myself again, like I did when I had a starting problem when it was new until I finally figured out the "ignition switch" spring was so strong it was turning itself off when I turned the key loose too quickly./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Bird

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

Ron, if you go back to the picture of the hydraulic outlet block; http://www.tractorbynet.com/forumfiles/2-29407-hydoutlet.JPG, I think you can see the top or front end of the cylinder (the end that attaches to the tractor) in the lower left corner of that picture. It's a heavy flat steel bar welded onto the end of the cylinder with the swivel ball in the end. That bar was longer than necessary, in fact I could have taken nearly 2" out of it and still had enough for the top link to swing up and down without the cylinder itself hitting the bracket. And that was another dumb thing I did; I took it to a hydraulic shop and had it done when I should have just done it myself. He just cut that bar off the end of the cylinder with a grinder, cut an inch out and welded it back on. I was reluctant to weld on it for fear I might damage the seals, but he said just pull the rod out (extend it completely) and you're welding on the other end; no problem.

Bird

 

[LarryT]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

Bird,
<font color=blue>"Have you ever put your hand on your FEL valve after running the tractor awhile to see how hot it feels?"</font color=blue>
Recall the pictures of my T&T valve and where it is located. Since one of the fittings is fairly close to the 3pt position lever, I often "touch" the hose fitting with the back of my hand. I can assure you that it is HOT when the tractor is fully warmed up. I've been meaning to buy some foam pipe insulation to put over the fitting but haven't done it yet. I've accepted that the fluid is hot when operating. Have you ever felt auto transmission fluid when the car is at normal operating temp? It is VERY hot! So I believe the normal temp for the hyd fluid is quite hot.

I'd hate to think that you tore the new setup out for nothing since I'm sure you don't need the practice, but I suspect the high temp in itself doesn't indicate anything abnormal.

Larry...

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

Thanks, Larry. You're right. I don't need the practice, or maybe I should say I don't want the practice. However, I can do the complete changeover in well under an hour, and it's not hard work.

Bird

 

[Pks]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

Larry,

I quite agree with your assesment on hydraulic temperatures.

I'm no authority on heat but for my own uses I went and created my own rule of thumb (based on Thermodynamics and Heat Transfer studies in school) regarding fluid operating temperatures. It goes something like this: if the system is piped with a heat exchanger, then the fluid will get much hotter than humans can tolerate (about 115 F). And, the inverse is also used: if the system can get hot enough to be intolerable to my skin, then consider the necessity of a heat exchanger. IMHO

Peter

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt - OK, Top \'N Tilt

I found in the manual (section on adjusting the relief valve) that the oil temperature is supposed to be 104F to 122F, with the engine at max speed. What I didn't find is where they take the temperature. Anyway, I tilled the garden this morning just to run the tractor at PTO speed with a little load for a half hour or so, shut it down (instead of engine running) and stuck my temperature probe down the dipstick tube; 122F. Then I put all the new hydraulics back on (after playing with the valve and air compressor and making sure the air flowed where I thought it ought to), tilled the garden again and took the temperature the same way again; 138F. Ambient temperature this morning about 60F during the first run and 65F during the second run. So now I'm wondering whether the friction from the oil having to flow a greater distance, through the hoses and new valve, generates more heat. The tractor is supposed to put out 6.4 gal/min, the new valve is rated for 6 to 8 gal/min, and the optional hydraulic outlet manual says for 4.5 gal/min. I'm also using all quarter inch hoses and wondered whether 3/8" hoses between the tractor and valve might be better (I know I don't need any larger hoses to the cylinders); however, even if I used larger hoses, the oil would still have to go through quarter inch fittings (that's what the hydraulic outlet is and that's what the fittings in the valve are).

I'm also wondering whether I want to spend the money to try Mark Chalkley's Amsoil since he says it runs cooler./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird