Hydraulic Tip 'N Tilt

[WVBill]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Harv:
I invested in the Workshop manual for my B6100 hoping, like you that it would give me more service information than the "drain the old stuff and put in new stuff". It doesn't.

I have the same opinion as your dealer. If I wanted to re-build the transmission or the engine, it might be helpful - but not helpful enough for me to want to tackle splitting the tractor with Workshop Manual in one hand and wrench in the other.

There doesn't seem to be a "Service Manual" for Kubota tractors.

WVBill

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by WVBill on 12/12/00 01:57 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[Harv]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

WVBill -

<font color=blue>There doesn't seem to be a "Service Manual" for Kubota tractors</font color=blue>

Now that's a bummer! /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

I was never much interested in getting into the guts of cars or trucks, but I am very much interested in learning all there is to know about my tractor.

Am I really on my own? I'd be very hesitant to start taking anything apart 'cuz my tractor is a loooong way from the nearest dealer or parts house, in case I get myself into trouble or need a particular part to put it back together.

Why is it that Kubota dealers are so helpful, yet Kubota Inc. is not?

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

WVBill, I assume you bought a Kubota manual instead of an aftermarket manual (which I did for my B7100 and it really wasn't much use). My initial thoughts about the Kubota manuals was that they are not all that great (not bad, but not the best), but the more I read, and learn to find what I'm looking for, the better I like them. Naturally they don't always answer all my questions (or maybe sometimes I just haven't found the answer), but it seems to me that they cover the routine maintenance pretty well. Of course, I do believe that you need the Parts Manual to go with the Workshop Manual.

Bird

 

[Harv]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Bird -

I suppose you could argue that the owner's manual covers routine maintenance "pretty well", but don't underestimate how dense I can be. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

For example, to drain the transmission fluid the manual says to remove the drain plug (singular), yet the accompanying illustration points out 4 plugs. What's up with that?

Actually, like you say, the more I stare at this manual the more I understand, but I have to really concentrate (I hate when I have to do that /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif).

Anyhoo, this thread is about tip 'n' tilt, and I'm looking for info on the hydraulic system. Maybe I could start by asking for some clarification of the terms youse guys are slinging around:

spool valve

power beyond

hydraulic block

distrubution block

open center

control valve section / assemblies

I can certainly guess at most of these, but I'd rather not be guessing any more than I have to.

Also curious -- will it be necessary to drain the hydraulic system to do the mods we're contemplating here?

Maybe I should change my Santa's cap (below) to a dunce cap. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

 

[gordon]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Harv I could type it all out but here you go.http://www.acshydraulics.com/pages/glossary.html

Gordon

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Harv, you have to remember that the manuals were written, or translated, by a Japanese person who wasn't completely fluent in English (or maybe vice versa)./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif My manual tells how to clean the "strainer" (singular), but there are two of them, so I understand what you mean. Fortunately, there are usually illustrations to go with the instructions. And that's another reason the parts manual is so important with the workshop manual; the parts manual has exploded views of the components.

Now, as for the definitions . . .. I think I'll wait awhile and see if someone like Mark or some of the other guys won't answer, since I think they could do a better job of it than I. And if they don't, I might give it a try and maybe really confuse you.

<font color=blue>Re: will it be necessary to drain the hydraulic system to do the mods we're contemplating here?</font color=blue>

I'm not positive, but don't think so; I think the line that has to have the cap removed and the hydraulic block bolted on is high enough to not siphon the oil, and in fact, since it's a high pressure line from the pump, and the tractor engine sure won't be running, I'm don't think the oil, other than just a little in the line, could come through the pump anyway.

And when you get that dunce cap, get one for me, too./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

 

[Harv]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Gordon -

Thanks for the link.

It's a good start. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Harv - I think you'd definitely find the official Kubota "Workshop Manual" worth the money. It's pretty good - at least the L-series version is. While it's definitely not "Tractors 101", it's still got enough theory and detail that you can figure out what's going on.

As for the discrepancy you found between the drain plug discussion and the photo, you're not the first to notice it. It's the age-old catch-22: Let the engineer write it, and no one has a clue what he's talking about. Hire a technical writer to do it, and everyone can understand him, but he doesn't know what he's talking about. Hire anybody else who'll take the job, and nobody understands what he's talking about, but it's a good thing, because he doesn't either.

I'll try my hand at some definitions for you, and you can try to figure out for yourself which of the above three categories I fit into /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif:

spool, valve, etc. - First, an example: That black thing on your loader frame that the joystick and all those hoses are connected to is the loader valve. The black metal part is the valve body. The shiny rods that the joystick moves in and out are the spools. That particular valve is called (are you sitting down for this one?) a two-spool valve because (drum roll, please) it has two of those spools in it.

Power Beyond - Most valves and hydraulic distribution blocks (which is just what it says) have a port labelled "PB", or sometimes just "P", which is known as a Power Beyond port. It's purpose is to allow you to plumb in additional hydraulic circuits. It's there so you can add stuff that needs hydraulic power more easily. Most hydraulic systems these days are known as "open center" circuits, which means that the valves in them must pass the fluid back to sump (the transmission case) when in the center position (i.e. not actuated). This means that there's a constant flow of fluid from the hydraulic pump through the system and back to sump, even when no work is being done (i.e. no cylinders are being moved). Also, the fluid is in this case situation under little or no pressure because there's no resistance to its flow. For example, if you look at the pictures and discussion in my "L4310 Enhancements" thread in the "Tractor Modifications" topic, you'll see that I've got a hydraulic pressure gauge on my tractor. When the tractor is running and all hydraulic valves are "centered", or not actuated, the pressure runs about 100 psi (I don't remember off-hand, but I'll check it). This is due to the normal resistance to flow of the hoses and valves in the primary circuit. But when I actuate one of the valves, the pressure on the gauge is whatever is necessary to move the cylinder. This is why, for example, you can use this gauge to determine how much something weighs. But anyway, back to Power Beyond: Its purppose is to allow you to add hydraulic circuits without modifying or tapping into the primary circuit. FWIW, apparently a hydraulic distribution block providing a Power Beyond port is optional on the B-Series, as Bird found out.

Hydraulic block/distribution block - Simply a "junction box" for hydraulic connections. There are many different designs and types, but they simply provide a means of plumbing hydraulic circuits. Some of them handle only the pressure side, providing a pressure in port and pressure out and power beyond ports. Some of them are simply "tees" for receiving fluid to be dumped to sump, also known as return lines. Some have ports for both pressure and return lines and handle both.

Open center has been discussed above. If you search, this has been discussed in some detail at least once, though it may be in the archives.

Control valve section/assemblies - Some valves are not made up of a single block with two or more spools in them, but are made only in single-spool blocks that are "stackable", i.e. they can be bolted together and connect to one another hydraulically by ports in the side of the blocks. A single one of these is sometimes called a control valve section. Multiple sections can be bolted together to form an assembly.

It is not necessary to drain the system to do anything we've discussed in this thread, though you will certainly lose some from hoses draining, etc. and need to "top off" when you're done.

HTH. Everything I've said may be wrong. Your mileage may vary. Don't do anything 'cause I did it or said it was safe. You know, all the usual disclaimers. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MarkC

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Let me see if I can make this simple . Because it really is. The hyd pump creates flow (and that's all) in an open center system the pump is a fixed displacement pump. If it's rated at 3 gpm at rated engine speed that's what you get all the time (at rated engine speed ex. 3 gpm@2600 rpm)
If the pump was'nt hooked up to anything else and dumped straight back to tank no pressure would ever be created/no work done. So lets run the pump output line to the 3ph control valve, stroke the valve a spool moves and sends fluid to fill a cylinder which gets full, as the void fills if the cyl has some place to go it does, when that cyl gets to the end of it's stroke (no place left to go ) it stops, but the pump is still creating flow and will continue to do so till something relieves the pressure that is building from the restriction of that flow (pressure is created by the restriction of flow/Finger over the garden hose) Pressure will build till the pump case explodes a line ruptures or the weakest link in the sytem "releives" this pressure. so we add in a pressure relief valve to prevent this from happening so when the cyl reaches the end of its stroke the relief valve opens a port to tank and dumps the fluid. Releiving the excess pressure and protecting the stystem.Now we have another problem all that flow is moving through a small orifice (relief valve) taking away engine power and creating alot of heat. So we need to destroke the valve, opening a larger port to tank so the pump flow can easily flow back to tank and not create pressure. Now we like our 3 ph but we want to run more stuff off our tractor so we tap into the line prior to the 3ph and send the flow to a loader control valve.(let's mark that hose orange) Now flow comes out of the pump and goes to the fel valve if we stop there, same problem, press builds to failure. So we run another hose back to the line going to the 3ph and through the open 3ph valve and back to tank (let's mark that hose green) but we better not leave it at that because if we stroke the fel valve and send fluid to a cyl and that cyl bottoms out, now we blow up our hyd system again, so we better put a relief valve in the loader control valve and send that back to tank and we'll mark that hose silver or gray. O.K. now we have a fel that works great and does'nt blow up and a 3ph that works as well. But we're still not satisfied we want more. We can tap off that green hose coming out of the fel valve put that to the in port of another valve run another hose out of the out port to tank and use that valve to run another hyd implement off our sysytem, we do'nt have to worry about relief because our fel relief valve will still protect the system and if the extra valve we install has its own relief we can set that higher or lower and have a different relief setting. Only one problem though, now our 3ph is'nt working,we sent the green (pb) hose back to tank instead of back into the line to the 3ph. No problem we can fix that we'll just run the hose out of the out port of our extra valve back to the line to the 3ph and were back in buisness. But wait there's another option the manufactorer has installed a port after the 3ph that allows us to tap into this flow and run another valve without extra hoses and still have main circuit releif pressure for protection. How cool is that?

 

[LarryT]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Bird,
I've been a "lurker" here for quite awhile and decided to wait until I had some value to add before I jumped in. I guess that's now. I have a B2910 (same chassis as B2710) with dealer installed hydraulic "tilt & tip". In my opinion, it ranks right up there with the FEL hyeraulics in usefulness! While this was dealer installed, it was not a Kubota (or any other make) pre packaged setup. They simply fabricate some brackets and assemble some parts (you can see that by the photos). I would have built it myself, but when I found out they offered it, I jumped on it (about $600 I think). I'm sure I could have built it cheaper but this way I had it at day one. I took these photos tonight with a flashlight in one hand and the camera in the other so they are not perfect. Tomorrow I'll get more details on the hookup and try to identify parts for you. The valves are mounted on the ROPS which works very well since you have to turn around to see the results anyway (see photo 1). You can also see that I retained the manually adjustable link (moved to the left, photo 2) to give me even more tilt for some applications. I do a lot of box blading and I've found this setup to increase my work output by orders of magnitude. I also find it useful when using the rotary mower in semi rough terrain. I hope this helps, I'll send more details. I just returned from Singapore this afternoon so I'm a little behind in reading (not way behind though, I did follow the tractorbynet while in Singapore and Hong Kong the past two weeks).

Larry...