IH 460 wont start
- Thread starter kbforester
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DJ54
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- IH Farmall 656 gas/ IH 240 Utility/ 2, Super C Farmalls/ 2, Farmall A's/ Farmall BN/McCormick-Deering OS-6/McCormick-Deering O-4/ '36 Farmall F-12/ 480 Case hoe. '65 Ford 2000 3 cyl., 4 spd. w/3 spd Aux. Trans
As mentioned, that is quite a gap in the points, for almost being in the flat of the cam. And can't tell if that is cam grease, or the rub block is worn. Being you said you replaced them, I will just assume it is cam grease build up. Bump it until the rub block is on the high point of the cam, and adjust the points to .020".
And not that it's that big of a deal at the moment, but following the rotation of the plug wires, looks like 2 & 3 are crossed, unless my eyes are deceiving me. I'll look tomorrow on my 656, and check the location for number one position on the cap. Can't help for some reason thinking the position of the wires in the cap are 180º out. The shop manual for my 656 is at the other farm, and it's getting down towards 6 degrees, so I'll look tomorrow... Is #1 marked on that cap..?? If so, it should only fit in one place, due to a notch in the cap, only letting it set completely down in one spot. For some reason, I'm thinking #1 should be the first hole, to the right of the hold down tang towards the front.
And you are correct about the 12V bypassing the resistor on start up. They are designed to give it 12V on startup for a hotter spark, then cut back to 6V to run, once you release the starter button. Supposedly to prolong the life of the points. Minneapolis-Moline used the same starting circuit on a couple of their tractors.
And not that it's that big of a deal at the moment, but following the rotation of the plug wires, looks like 2 & 3 are crossed, unless my eyes are deceiving me. I'll look tomorrow on my 656, and check the location for number one position on the cap. Can't help for some reason thinking the position of the wires in the cap are 180º out. The shop manual for my 656 is at the other farm, and it's getting down towards 6 degrees, so I'll look tomorrow... Is #1 marked on that cap..?? If so, it should only fit in one place, due to a notch in the cap, only letting it set completely down in one spot. For some reason, I'm thinking #1 should be the first hole, to the right of the hold down tang towards the front.
And you are correct about the 12V bypassing the resistor on start up. They are designed to give it 12V on startup for a hotter spark, then cut back to 6V to run, once you release the starter button. Supposedly to prolong the life of the points. Minneapolis-Moline used the same starting circuit on a couple of their tractors.
OP
kbforester
Member
I'll definitely fix the gap in the points. I'm still very new at all this.
Yes, it is Cam grease.
I think all the wires are hooked up correctly, every hole is numbered.
I'll get some more work done to her on Friday or over the weekend. Highs in the single digits, and I have to go north for work... high of -6 there, windchill of -41. I love being a forester!
Soundguy
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let us know what you find!
once that excessive points gap is corrected.. the problems may be over!
once that excessive points gap is corrected.. the problems may be over!
DJ54
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- IH Farmall 656 gas/ IH 240 Utility/ 2, Super C Farmalls/ 2, Farmall A's/ Farmall BN/McCormick-Deering OS-6/McCormick-Deering O-4/ '36 Farmall F-12/ 480 Case hoe. '65 Ford 2000 3 cyl., 4 spd. w/3 spd Aux. Trans
Once you get the points set, better check 4 & 5 plug wires, I do believe they are crossed. For some reason last night I had the distributor pictured on the right side... Guess I was thinking of all of my 4 cyls., I only have 1, 6 cyl tractor, and 11, 4 cyls. Firing order is cast into the block there below the plugs, and as mentioned earlier, a CW rotation. Always remember..., 15 too young, 36 too old, and 24 just right. 
Alternator is an easy hookup. Single wire back to the - side of the volt/amp meter. If the + side is already tied into the harness as shown in the schematic, you should be good to go.
Alternator is an easy hookup. Single wire back to the - side of the volt/amp meter. If the + side is already tied into the harness as shown in the schematic, you should be good to go.
OP
kbforester
Member
Time for an Update! Got it Running!
DJ54-distributor cap order was correct. Did you mean Counter clockwise rotation? That's the way this one turns anyways. The picture might be hard to interpret. Or, there might have been a chance that I made a mistake when I took the picture... and have since fixed it during on of the the gagillion times I've taken everything apart.
Soundguy/KevinJ- Gap was adjusted to .020. Multimeter tested, everything was working, all over the tractor... but it still wouldn't start.
Pulled a spark plug, and gave it a test, and it sparked! Took a little quick start fluid, sprayed it into the spark plug hole, replaced, and tried her again. Fired up for a little bit and died. Tried to start it without more fluid and it wouldn't fire. Pulled a different plug, put some fluid in her, turned her over and she fired up stronger, but died again. Turned her over with some more gas and she got going great.
Not sure why its so difficult to start. I mean, its cold. High of 16 degrees today. But its a gas tractor, is shouldn't be that bad should it? It is my first winter with this tractor.
- Also, some other odd things...
When I start it, PTO comes on. The lever isn't engaged, but it comes on anyways. After it warms up, it stops. But not for like 10 mins. Then it functions normally. Could I have some ice in there holding a valve open or something (I don't know what I'm talking about)? If water settles anywhere its probably in the PTO. I should test the drain plug when its warm ( not an ice block)
- If the timing was incorrect would it start and go? It's hard to tell based on sound, I don't have the exhaust hooked up to the manifold yet, so it's just wicked loud.
That's it for now I guess. Hopefully it will start tomorrow. This time I parked it my driveway so I could have it hauled away on a flatbed truck if I needed to. Better than out in the field. Now... time to figure out how to fix a new steering issue....
DJ54-distributor cap order was correct. Did you mean Counter clockwise rotation? That's the way this one turns anyways. The picture might be hard to interpret. Or, there might have been a chance that I made a mistake when I took the picture... and have since fixed it during on of the the gagillion times I've taken everything apart.
Soundguy/KevinJ- Gap was adjusted to .020. Multimeter tested, everything was working, all over the tractor... but it still wouldn't start.
Pulled a spark plug, and gave it a test, and it sparked! Took a little quick start fluid, sprayed it into the spark plug hole, replaced, and tried her again. Fired up for a little bit and died. Tried to start it without more fluid and it wouldn't fire. Pulled a different plug, put some fluid in her, turned her over and she fired up stronger, but died again. Turned her over with some more gas and she got going great.
Not sure why its so difficult to start. I mean, its cold. High of 16 degrees today. But its a gas tractor, is shouldn't be that bad should it? It is my first winter with this tractor.
- Also, some other odd things...
When I start it, PTO comes on. The lever isn't engaged, but it comes on anyways. After it warms up, it stops. But not for like 10 mins. Then it functions normally. Could I have some ice in there holding a valve open or something (I don't know what I'm talking about)? If water settles anywhere its probably in the PTO. I should test the drain plug when its warm ( not an ice block)
- If the timing was incorrect would it start and go? It's hard to tell based on sound, I don't have the exhaust hooked up to the manifold yet, so it's just wicked loud.
That's it for now I guess. Hopefully it will start tomorrow. This time I parked it my driveway so I could have it hauled away on a flatbed truck if I needed to. Better than out in the field. Now... time to figure out how to fix a new steering issue....
Soundguy
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- RK 55HC,ym1700, NH7610S, Ford 8N, 2N, NAA, 660, 850 x2, 541, 950, 941D, 951, 2000, 3000, 4000, 4600, 5000, 740, IH 'C' 'H', CUB, John Deere 'B', allis 'G', case VAC
mighta had a lil low compression.. rolling over warmed it. a lil oil in the cyl would help too.
on the pto.. likely cold/thick oil coupling..
on the pto.. likely cold/thick oil coupling..
DJ54
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2009
- Messages
- 4,227
- Location
- Carroll, Ohio
- Tractor
- IH Farmall 656 gas/ IH 240 Utility/ 2, Super C Farmalls/ 2, Farmall A's/ Farmall BN/McCormick-Deering OS-6/McCormick-Deering O-4/ '36 Farmall F-12/ 480 Case hoe. '65 Ford 2000 3 cyl., 4 spd. w/3 spd Aux. Trans
Glad you got it going..!! Not all IH 6 cyls. have the same rotation on the distributor. My 656 is CW. It really does pay to have a specific repair manual for your model tractor.
Don't know if you caught where I explained about the 6V coil on the 12V starting system. If you have the 6V coil on, and proper wiring from the starter switch to the solenoid, then bypassing the resistor per your wiring schematic, it should give it 12V (hotter spark)on startup, then once the starter button is released, it will run on 6V through the resistor.
I checked at Case/IH parts, and it shows two different versions of the ignition system, apparently doing away with the resistor, and 6V coil on later models. Shows same distributor, and same contact points on both systems. So like Soundguy said, you could lose the 6V coil, and do away with the resistor. Since you have a new 6V, that would be up to you...
Either way, if wired like it shows in the wiring diagram you posted, you should get 12V to the distributor when cranking the starter.
And as mentioned, your compression could be down some, either through wear of the rings, or valves, or just somewhat dry cylinders.
You got it running, that's the main thing. Keep the charging system, and battery up to snuff, and it should be alot easier to start.
Don't know if you caught where I explained about the 6V coil on the 12V starting system. If you have the 6V coil on, and proper wiring from the starter switch to the solenoid, then bypassing the resistor per your wiring schematic, it should give it 12V (hotter spark)on startup, then once the starter button is released, it will run on 6V through the resistor.
I checked at Case/IH parts, and it shows two different versions of the ignition system, apparently doing away with the resistor, and 6V coil on later models. Shows same distributor, and same contact points on both systems. So like Soundguy said, you could lose the 6V coil, and do away with the resistor. Since you have a new 6V, that would be up to you...
Either way, if wired like it shows in the wiring diagram you posted, you should get 12V to the distributor when cranking the starter.
And as mentioned, your compression could be down some, either through wear of the rings, or valves, or just somewhat dry cylinders.
You got it running, that's the main thing. Keep the charging system, and battery up to snuff, and it should be alot easier to start.
sox3
Gold Member
Glad you got it running. If the fuel in it is from the summer that may be your problem. In cold temps winter blend fuel has a ton of Butane in it to make engines start easier. Just my .02
OP
kbforester
Member
The gas was new in November, and had stabilizer in it. But on a related thought, before that I had the gas tank off (and empty of course) for a few months and after I put it back on I was kicking myself for not flushing it first. I've learned the hard way from a troybuilt wheel horse that sat around with an empty tank for a couple of years. When it finally started it kept clogging the carb. I looked in the tank it and was actually cloudy with rust. :ashamed: The tractor could have had a similar, though much less severe problem. I probably should have used that gas tank liner stuff too.