Independent PTO Not so Independent...

[Bamaram]

Larry,
A rear split is required in order to replace the brake pawl. Further damage to the mechanical parts of the tractor is unlikely if you don't fix it. But it is a safety hazard.

Sorry for being so vague. The PTO is indeed independent. When the tractor has the mower attached it just barely turns the mower, as in you could grab the drive shaft and stop it. Or if the blades are in thick grass it won't turn. When you engage the PTO it cuts anything and everything. Hate to hear it requires a full split of the tractor. If it isn't going to hurt anything else it is gonna stay the like it is. Thanks for the info guys!

 

[Soundguy]

ok.. that bit of info pretty much sums it up as a parasitic oil coupling and a worn brake. IE.. it is not spinning with any power as it would / could be i fthe ind pto had warped discs, or the control valve had failed leving the pto clutch pressurized.

as rick said.. it woun't hurt the tractor any.. just with no load on it, it will spin back there.

soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

I take it youre saying that a pto having gears meshed from the engine through the trans to the output stub is independent if there is an independent clutch somewhere in the string. All the independents I have do not have gears meshed and require operating the pto clutch to mesh them and then ultimately to power the stub. My thot is that while the 1st may act independent enuf to be called that, it is actually a live pto with an internal clutch that is disengaged. :confused2: Doesnt that analogy fit? ... I think that design is inherently dangerous when the engine is running.
larry

this may help.. here's the parts listing and diagram.

hyd valve pressurizes clutch pack..e tc.

1 1 82847704 HOUSING Housing, Clutch, Repl. C5NNN708B, When replacing C5NNN708B W/C5NNN708C(81817334) on Tractors built prior to production date code 8F26 also use 6 each 1P77573A &
2 1 81801963 PISTON Piston, Clutch, Start Year: 01/01/1965
3 1 9849963 O-RING O-RING, -136, 90 Duro, 1.987" ID x .103" Thk, Start Year: 01/01/1965
4 1 C0NN7C000A SEALRING Seal, Clutch Piston Outer, Repl. 1P77513A, Start Year: 01/01/1965
5 1 1P77515B SPRING Spring, Clutch Piston, (C), Start Year: 01/01/1965
6 1 C5NNN757A WASHER Washer, Clutch Piston Spring Retaining, Start Year: 01/01/1965
7 1 C5NNN754A SNAP RING Snap Ring, Clutch Piston Spring Retaining Washer, Start Year: 01/01/1965
8 7 C5NNN744B CLUTCH Disc Assy., Clutch, Years: 01/01/1965-03/31/1968
8 6 C8AP7B442A PLATE Plate, Clutch External Spline, (C), Start Year: 04/01/1968
9 6 C5NNN743A PLATE Plate, Clutch, Years: 01/01/1965-03/31/1968
9 6 C5NNP743B PLATE Plate Assy., Clutch Internal Spline, Start Year: 04/01/1968
10 1 C4TP7B437A PLATE Plate, Clutch Pressure, Start Year: 01/01/1965
11 1 1P77523A RING Snap Ring, Clutch Pressure Plate, (C), Start Year: 01/01/1965
12 2 81809513 SEAL SEAL, 2.375" OD, Oil, Clutch Housing, Start Year: 01/01/1965
13 1 C5NNN783B DISC Washer, Clutch Thrust, Start Year: 01/01/1965
14 1 E9NNN739AA SHAFT Shaft & Bushing Assy., Indep. PTO Clutch Includes: Shaft Plus: 15, Start Year: 01/01/1965
15 1 C5NNN709B BUSHING Bush/Bushing, Start Year: 01/01/1965
16 AR 81805215 WASHER Washer, Clutch Input Shaft .030 (.762mm), Start Year: 01/01/1965
16 AR C5NN7N509B WASHER Washer, Clutch Input Shaft .010 (.254mm), Start Year: 01/01/1965
17 1 C5NNN704B SUPPORT Support, Clutch Brake Housing, No Longer Serviced., Years: 01/01/1965-02/28/1969
17A 1 D8NNN704AA SUPPORT Support Assy., Repl. C7NNN704B, When replacing C7NNN704B (81819063) W/D8NNN704AA (81819063) also replace C5NNN787B(87763140) W/D8NNN787BA (83917386)., Start Yea
17B 1 83416255 HYD CONNECTOR Connector, 1/2"-20 x 5/16" (Tube) (Replaces 87972S), Start Year: 03/01/1969
18 1 C5NNN701A HOUSING Housing, Clutch Brake, Years: 01/01/1965-02/28/1969
19 4 80681 LOCK WASHER Washer, Lock, 5/16", Start Year: 01/01/1965
20 2 87657 BOLT BOLT, Hex, 5/16"-18 x 1 1/4", G5, Start Year: 01/01/1965
22 1 C9NNN747A ARM Arm Assy., Drive Clutch Brake (Repl. C7NN-N747-C), Start Year: 01/01/1965
23 1 280236 COTTER PIN Pin, Split (Cotter), 1/16" x 1/2", Start Year: 01/01/1965
24 1 73947S PIN Pin, Clevis, 1/4" x 1-3/8", Start Year: 01/01/1965
25 1 D8NNN787BA PISTON Piston, When replacing C5NN-N787-B(87763140) W/D8NN-N787-BA(81817334) also replace C7NN-N704-B(81819063) W/D8NN-N704-AA(83917385)., Start Year: 01/01/1965
26 1 9849109 O-RING O-Ring, .250" ID x .070" Thk, Piston (Small), Start Year: 01/01/1965
27 1 788421 O-RING O-Ring, 1.489" ID x .070" Thk, Piston, Large, Start Year: 01/01/1965
28 1 C5NNN785D SPRING Spring, Drive Clutch Brake (Outer), Start Year: 01/01/1965
28A 1 C5NNB716B SPRING Spring, Drive Clutch Brake (Inner), Start Year: 01/01/1965
29 1 C5NNN784B WASHER Washer, Drive Clutch Brake, Start Year: 01/01/1965
30 1 C5NNN716A RING Snap Ring, 1-5/16" Clutch Brake Spring & Washer, Start Year: 01/01/1965
31 1 C5NNN742A GASKET Gasket, Clutch Brake Plate, Start Year: 01/01/1965
32 1 C5NNN706B PLATE Plate, Clutch Brake, Repl. C5NN-N706-A, Start Year: 01/01/1965
33 AR 81547 LOCK WASHER WASHER, LOCK, 7/16"
34 3 304705S36 BOLT BOLT, Hex, 7/16"-14 x 1 1/8", G5, Start Year: 01/01/1965
35 1 81801988 TUBE Tube Assy., Clutch Valve to Brake Hsg. Support, Start Year: 01/01/1965
36 1 D8NNN797AA HYDRAULIC VALVE Valve Assy., Independent PTO Clutch Repl. C5NNN797C (Ref. 5B 9-17-1T) Includes: Housing Plus: 37-40, Start Year: 01/01/1965
37 1 C5NNN781A SPRING Spring, Valve Detent, Start Year: 01/01/1965
1 72387 BALL BALL, 5/16" Dia, Detent Spring, Start Year: 01/01/1965
39 1 81801976 PISTON Piston, Clutch Valve, Start Year: 01/01/1965
40 AR 81801936 SHIM Shim, Piston Spring .30 Dia. x .030, Start Year: 01/01/1965
41 1 D8NNN775AA SPRING Spring, Clutch Valve, Start Year: 01/01/1965
42 1 C5NNN717B PLUNGER Plunger, Clutch Valve, Start Year: 01/01/1965
43 1 V15713 ROLL PIN Pin, Roll, 1/8" x 7/8", Start Year: 01/01/1965
44 1 87037S94 O-RING O-Ring, .750" ID x .103" Thk, Valve Assy. to Bushing, Start Year: 01/01/1965
45 1 81801879 BUSHING Bush/Bushing, Clutch Valve to Center Housing, Start Year: 01/01/1965
46 1 81801978 BOLT Bolt, Valve Body Spigot, Start Year: 01/01/1965
47 1 81547 LOCK WASHER WASHER, LOCK, 7/16", Start Year: 01/01/1965
48 1 C5NNN793A DISC Washer, Valve Body Spigot, Start Year: 01/01/1965
49 1 81547 LOCK WASHER WASHER, LOCK, 7/16", Start Year: 01/01/1965
50 1 304668S36 BOLT BOLT, HH, G5, 7/16"-14 x 7/8", Start Year: 01/01/1965
51 1 E6NNN728AA CONNECTING LINK Link, Clutch Valve Lever, E6NNN728AA(83956755) has no groove in Shaft for O-Ring, Ref. 52, as did the previous P/N C5NN-N728-C(81815732). This is correct, insta
52 1 130282 O-RING O-Ring, .489" ID x .070" Thk, Start Year: 01/01/1965
53 AR 280236 COTTER PIN Pin, Split (Cotter), 1/16" x 1/2"
54 1 9672307 CLEVIS PIN PIN, CLEVIS, 1/4" x 3/4", Start Year: 01/01/1965
55 1 81816077 BUSHING Bushing, Clutch Valve Lever, Start Year: 01/01/1965
56 1 C5NNN741F LEVER Lever, Clutch Valve, Replaces P/N C5NNN741B, 4100, Start Year: 01/01/1965
56 1 D2NNN741A LEVER Lever, PTO Clutch Valve, 3550-4400-4410-4500, No Longer Serviced., Start Year: 01/01/1965
57 1 34807S36 LOCK WASHER Washer, Lock, 3/8", Start Year: 01/01/1965
57A 1 88374 BOLT Screw, Cap, HH, G5, 3/8"-24 x 1", Start Year: 01/01/1965
58 1 C5NNN788A TUBE Tube Assy., Clutch Valve to Hydraulic Pump, Start Year: 01/01/1965
59 1 9993141 O-RING O-Ring, 90 Duro, .364" ID x .070" Thk, Start Year: 01/01/1965
60 1 83929950 TUBE Tube Assy., Valve Exhaust Lower (Replaces E1NNN770AA), Start Year: 01/01/1965
61 1 83929949 TUBE Tube Assy., PTO Valve Exhaust Upper (Replaces E1NNN769AA), Start Year: 01/01/1965
62 2 C5NNN790A SEAL Seal, Exhaust Valve, 3/8" I.D. x 1/2" O.D. x .26 (9.525 x 12.7 x 6.604mm), Start Year: 01/01/1965
63 1 81811253 BRACKET Bracket Assy., Exhaust Tube, Start Year: 01/01/1965
63A 1 P0401-542 BOLT Screw, Cap, HH, G5, 1/4"-28 x 1", US, Start Year: 01/01/1965
63A 1 P0401-542 BOLT Screw, Cap, HH, G5, 1/4"-28 x 1", Start Year: 01/01/1965
64 1 D3NN710D SHAFT Shaft & Sleeve Assy., PTO Rear, 30.64", 26T, Replaces P/N C5NN710A, Start Year: 01/01/1965
65 1 D3NN7A693A BEARING ASSY Bearing, Shaft Rear, Start Year: 01/01/1965
66 2 168104 SNAP RING Ring, Snap, #177, Ext, Rear Shaft Bearing, Start Year: 01/01/1965
66 2 BB7045 RING Ring, Lock, Rear Shaft Bearing, No Longer Serviced NH-E., Start Year: 01/01/1965
67 1 81801870 SNAP RING Ring, Snap, Bearing to Center Housing, Start Year: 01/01/1965
69 1 C5NN4N129A GASKET Gasket, Plate, Optional w/#EAF-980-A, Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
69A 1 EAF980A O-RING O-Ring, Cover Seal, Optional w/#C5NN-4N129-A, No Longer Serviced NH-E., Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
69A AR NS NOT SERVICED Refer to Service Bulletin Feb. 1967 (6T), Not Serviced, Start Year: 01/01/1965
70 2 C5NNN737A Tab, Plate Lock, Optional w/#34796-S7, U.S., No Longer Serviced NHNA., Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
70A 4 86729275 LOCK WASHER Washer, Lock, 5/8", Quad Rib, Optional W/#C5NNN737A, Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
70B 1 C5NNN727A Plate, PTO Rear, Years: 01/01/1965-11/01/1966
71 3 377186S43 BOLT Bolt, HH, 5/8"-11 x 1-5/8", No Longer Serviced NHNA., Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
71 1 379625S2 Bolt, HH, 5/8"-11 x 1-5/8", No Longer Serviced., Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
72 2 81547 LOCK WASHER WASHER, LOCK, 7/16", Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
72 4 81547 LOCK WASHER WASHER, LOCK, 7/16", Start Year: 12/01/1966
73 4 9637916 BOLT BOLT, Hex, 7/16"-14 x 1 1/2", G5, Start Year: 12/01/1966
74 1 C5NN733B COVER Cover, No Longer Serviced NHNA., Years: 01/01/1965-11/30/1966
74 1 C5NN733F COVER Cover, Start Year: 12/01/1966
75 1 D9NN703BB GASKET Oil Seal Assy., PTO, Start Year: 01/01/1965
76 1 81801859 COVER Cap, Start Year: 01/01/1965
77 1 C5NNP717B Shroud Assy., Clutch, No Longer Serviced., Start Year: 01/01/1965
78 1 C5NNP744A STOP Stop, Clutch Valve Lever, Start Year: 01/01/1965
79 1 44730S8 Washer, 7/16", NHNA Only., No Longer Serviced., Start Year: 01/01/1965
80 1 379410S2 Bolt, HH, 7/16"-14 x 1-1/2", NHNA Only., No Longer Serviced., Start Year: 01/01/1965

 

[SPYDERLK]

Thanks for the pictorial.:thumbsup: Sorta what I was starting to think. Seems there oughta be some descriptor to draw this type apart from the ones that actually disengage gears. Im going to call it live independent. I can certainly see some spontaneous danger in that type - significantly more than independent but still low.
larry

 

[Soundguy]

i've seen some newer HST tractors that have a foot clutch along with the hst pedals, and are otherwise sold as independent pto, however the foot clutch kills EVERYTHING..

soundguy

 

[kyrrdr]

i'm looking at a 68 4000 ford w/a similar ? pto problem. i'm told the shaft would turn all the time initially and he'd spent 4/500.00 replacing "everything"?
after which it seemed to work for a short period of time then quit....looking at the exploded view scares me to death ..
any help's much appreciated
btw asking price is 4500.00......

 

[Soundguy]

4000 , if ind pro, should not involve foot clutch, but rather hyd clutch pack, those normally last a long time unless the slip, a 4000 with non op pro I would not oau 4500$ for... Jmho

 

[kyrrdr]

hello again soundguy ,,i think i've decided against th 4000 i told you about and try to get my 1530 diesel jd back running. i was bushhogging today and it ran ok ...for an hr. or so then started surging and lugging down .....to the point i had to just quit .....kicked the pto out and it seemed to smooth out some.fuel filter was gunky so i changed it .,,,bled it ...wouldn't start ....changed fuel lift pump ...on / off on /off can't get it to bleed the filter now......(probly throwed that 50 bucks away)...i found out the cam has to be in a certain position for the pump arm to actuate but not sure how to know for sure?
is there anything i might have done wrong changing the filter to prevent it bleeding? or ??
also never know if it'll start or not....might kick right off then 5 minutes later act like the batts. are down??
i know this's a mouth full to ask but i'm bout to pull out my one hair "+)
preciate any light you can shed on this thing
larry

 

[Soundguy]

deffinately sounds like a fuel issue.

I'm not familiar with that JD model. but I'd remove fitler and see if you are getting fuel pumped to the filter head and go from there.

 

[kyrrdr]

thanks for your reply !
turned out to be the filter outlet was plugged ...runs great now but ....the lift's quit me now..i drove tractor to a bushog job in the raised postion and let it sit for a short time then it wouldn't lift at all. (it's always went down pretty quickly when engine's shut off )...trying to locate any filters that may /may not be the problem ..??
any more help's much appreciated !