JD4520 and tilt hydraulics - have questions

[GreatWhitehunter]

In the power industry we've got engineer's up the wazoo. ( I'm a control tech, so I'm the guy who takes the theory to reality) And we like to joke about them being book smart real world stupid LOL.

Matt

 

[eepete]

Yeah, welcome to my world.

I'm pretty good at designing, layout out, and bringing to life a circuit board and software. But hydraulics are new to me so I need the reality check that everyone here can give me. You're strength is your weakness.

I've got a buddy in the power industry, we're a pretty good compliment to each other in this regard. He's got a _lot_ of stupid engineer stories....
Thanks for keeping the lights on for everyone!

Pete

 

[eepete]

After a delay of game (see http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/john-deere-owning-operating/162706-new-jd4520-cab-destroyed.html) I've got the TnT back on track. I had CCM make a cylinder to my specs. I've attached the drawing I sent them. The final closed length of the cylinder (center hole to center hole) worked out to be about 15.25", which is fine. They blew the clear 3/4 at the top, so a brass bushing had to be drilled out to get it to fit. They made both ends 5/8".

You can see where the side tilt cylinder (green) has the lines coming out of the DPOCV at 90 degrees by using banjo bolts. There is then this incredible arc of hose that comes down to the rear of the tractor where the plate that used to be at the front for the loader has been re-located. The hoses do 90 degree turn into the QCs (need better pix of this....). I suspect that I'll play with this a bit and shorten the hoses so they just rest on above the SMV sign holder when the 3 PT hitch is at it's lowest. There isn't any good way to route the hoses without having them crunch in on something, so while the big arc is funny looking it is functional. Might also flip the cylinder 180 around so the hose lines come out closer to the tractor. This is where Steve's (jenkinsph) method of in line QCs is a bit more accommodating.

The CCM toplink is very happy now. As you can see in one of the pix, the QCs are about at the same level as the hoses out of the DPOCVs. They arc nicely over the lift arms throughout all the travel of the 3 PT hitch. This is better than thing fit when the toplink was on the 3rd SCV (I've got a thread on that too).

It's hard to see in the picture, but the adjustable lift arm on that is now on the left of the tractor is out about 1.3". That is giving me about the same amount off tilt in each direction, more pix to follow when the box blade is on. This gives me some manual room if I don't want symmetric amounts of tilt for a project.

So the TnT is on the joystick in the cab. I still have the 3rd SCV which the sickle mower uses. It's real touchy, so I'm thinking some restrictors in the line of the side cylinder would be nice. Since I have 90 in there already, I could put them so that the small hole in the restrictor doesn't force a stream of hydraulic fluid onto a hose, it goes on to metal. Any additional lenght in doing this would just add a bit to the hose height as it arcs over everything.

Anyway, here are the 1st pix for y'all to enjoy and react to, I'll be working and adjusting it some more. I'll post some more pix as this progresses and when I have the iMatch on.

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,
Nice looking tilt cylinder,:thumbsup: you will like the top and tilt functions.

My question is with the top link cylinder having check valves doesn't this limit the ability to use the float position on your joystick? It won't matter with your MX6 which has the flexible top link built in, but may affect your landplane. I have found times when using my 3pt harrow and landplane where having the top cylinder in the float position is beneficial.

Again glad to see the tractor back home.

 

[eepete]

Ah, the whack-a-mole world of attachments. Yeah, now that the top cylinder is on the joystick and I can float, the check valves complicate things. I like the safety aspects of the valves, but with this land plane it might be an issue. I wonder what people with fixed top links do to use a landplane, as the check valves behave like a fixed top link (except you can quickly change it on the fly). Is this akin to a box blade on fixed toplink vs. hydraulic- both work but the hydraulic is 10x better ?

I'll have to play with it. My hope is that most of the time, I'll use the box blade to get things close to level, and then the landplane will be OK with the non flexible but quickly adjustable toplink. If this is not the case, then a hydraulic toplink without check valves could be used, that is at least a cheap(er) cylinder. 'corse that kinda defeats the whole idea of the iMatch. What might make this work for me (but not for others and especially you) is I will be doing most of my ground engaging work when it's not mowing season. So I could put my check valve toplink on during mowing season, and then switch to the regular cylinder the other 5 months of the year.

Another crazy option would be to take that post coming out of the landplane and find some way to make it have some pivot to it, say +- 10 degrees or so. Could still use the TnT to pick it up, but it would be able to move around enough to make using it easier.

BTW, got the GradeMaster because it was $300 less than the Pioneer. Only weights 50 pounds less, same height/box volume. I got it from my Deere dealer to keep that relationship good.

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,
Not a real big deal on the float, nothing to be too concerned about.

I think you will find the plane will move quite a bit of dirt, so there will be lots of times you will not need the boxblade. Hope you can try out the plane and post back.

 

[eepete]

An update to round out this thread. I had the box blade on my JD 4520, and took pictures of the range of movement with the TnT/iMatch. The stroke on the side cylinder is 4". The adjustable arm is out .9 "

I'm just organizing things in the new tractor garage, in about a week I'll start moving dirt with the boxblade and landplane and get a feel for it all.

I hear everyone likes pictures...

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,

Looks good just don't forget you can adjust the other side when you need to.

 

[eepete]

Another update: Today I added a needle valve to the tilt cylinder, and re-dressed the hoses so they are not up over the glass.

The 1st pix is the needle valve and QC. The next pic shows how the hoses route out of there. They had to be dressed just right to avoid hitting the lift arm.

The last pix is the finished product, the new rear of the tractor with the TnT. The needle valve is installed, and the hoses now run below the washer fluid tank and not up on the rear window. So now it's easier to open the rear window.

Finally, I listened to Kennyd and made a pressure gauge I could plug in. My 4520 was right on the money at 2500 pounds when the relief valve kicked in. I used teflon paste, not tape BTW- no leaks, no problems :thumbsup:.

Before the needle valve, I had to stop the tractor to adjust the tilt. Just the slightest movement of the joystick slammed it to one side or the other. Learned to manage it, but it could be better. Thought about a fixed orafice but liked the idea that I didn't have to be right about the size, I could just dial the needle valve until it was the response I thought was right.

So now it takes about 3-4 seconds to go from one side to the other, and I can adjust on the fly. It sounds different because you can hear the relief valve kick in, but thats OK, I know the pressure is where it should be.

Next I'm worrying about the title cylinder having just a hole and not a slot like the other side. If I could mill out a slot and weld on to strips of metal, I could get the 3PH float functionality back. Yeah, I'm the kind of person who is not happy unless they are worrying about something :laughing:.

Pete

 

[jenkinsph]

Pete,
Much better for sure,:thumbsup:
To be frank, I wouldn't have accepted the job your dealer did with the hoses looped in front of the rear window. How have you been able to open the rear window to operate the IMatch latches? It is apparent that you went to lots of trouble to get this much neater appearance.


When I ran my couplers to the rear I used 1/4" x48" length hoses, I did not mount the quick couplers on a plate as yours. My quick couplers are forward and tucked under the cab. I haven't needed to unplug them yet and feel that this position allows you to route the hoses with less movement and flexing. Having the hoses cross over the pin or hinge point allows for less movement. My couplers do have enough slack to move out from under the cab to connect and disconnect easily.

If I were to do this again I would locate the tilt cylinder quick couplers to the spool valve, since there isn't much point in having the hoses crossing back and forth. The tilt cylinder hoses could connect in an almost straight path to the valve with quick coupler. Two 90 degree ells on the valve would take the place of the hoses we both have now.

About the needle valve setup, I suspect the check valves are causing your issues with control of the cylinders. IIRC most of the check valves require about 600 psi to open thus creating the slingshot effect you are getting. I can feather my cylinders and move the tilt and top cylinders in tiny increments with no problems just as you can with your loader and backhoe. I have never found the need for the check valves on the cylinders because when grading I am constantly making adjustments to the plane and boxblade. Instead of taking 4 seconds to extend or retract at full speed I would rather about 2 seconds or less. This allows you to adjust the boxblade on the fly, if I feather mine it could take over 5 seconds to extend or retract.