KS family die in plane crash

[ray66v]

Can someone condense what they think happened?

Right now, ETpilot's scenario, or some sort of severe turbulence, wind-shear, and or downdraft, during the time he attempted to turn north, resulting in a structural failure, probably due to pilot over control, seem most like the most plausible explanations.

The big concern is whether or not an unknown defect in what is considered to be a pretty bullet proof aircraft, was involved.

 

[RoyJackson]

Right now, ETpilot's scenario, or some sort of severe turbulence, wind-shear, and or downdraft, during the time he attempted to turn north, resulting in a structural failure, probably due to pilot over control, seem most like the most plausible explanations.

The big concern is whether or not an unknown defect in what is considered to be a pretty bullet proof aircraft, was involved.

I don't see any new developments in this report...we've already read most of that in the earlier reports just after the accident. I'd sure like to see the video of the aircraft falling though.
Although tragic, I don't see a major accident investigation in the future. The loss of life was very limited and, in the scheme of things, the financial loss wasn't that great.

As far as the "unknown defect", possibility it was just metal fatigue rather then a particular design defect. Not being a general aviation pilot, I don't know how indepth the scheduled airframe inspections are.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Holy cats... That Pilatus stall is completely scary. Then again, my experience is limited but ending up upside down to a new owner doesn't bode well.

 

[ray66v]

Holy cats... That Pilatus stall is completely scary. Then again, my experience is limited but ending up upside down to a new owner doesn't bode well.

Some aircraft do that. But it looks like they were purposely making it roll on to it's back. Note the cockpit video. You can see in the first cockpit video, the wings are not level on the attitude indicator when they stalled it.

Note that they did keep the wings level in the second cockpit video, and it fell forward.

Certification tests often require repeatedly doing things that you really would normally go to great lengths to avoid. :no:

 

[Diamondpilot]

I started my commercial flying career by flying the Pilatus PC-12 aircraft and I can tell you that is one of strongest, well built airplanes out there.
Let's not jump to any conclusions, the news media is not a reliable source of information about aircraft accidents, they often get things wrong.

From the pictures I've seen it looks like the center section of the fuselage is torn open along the roof and the emergence exit door is missing. The tail is broken off at the point where it attaches to the pressure vessle.


It would take an extreme event to cause this to happen.

I am with you on this one. I flew the PC-12 from 1996 till 1999 and had the honor of flying the 13th and the 50th one off the assembly line. I was the first pilot in North America to be checked out in a PC-12 for passenger charter service, part 135 for you pilot types. I have 1,820 hours flying the PC-12 of which 95% of that time was single pilot in all weather. Its still my favorite airplane to this date and I have flow quite a few corporate jets but non compare in my eyes and my 8,000 hours of jet and turbo prop time and my 3,000 hours of piston time. The PC12 is just a great airplane.

From what I have read and learned it was pilot error that lead to the accident. Looks like he continued on into adverse weather conditions that was beyond his skill set.

Chris

 

[Diamondpilot]

I believe this was a loss of control accident. The pilot was trying to avoid weather ahead and began a right turn to avoid the weather. As you read the NTSB report at 1233:37 he began a right decending turn. This turn continued and after 1234:01 it plunged down to 10700 feet. The turn was probably tight and the descent was fast. Also speed was reduced and then increased. This may have lead to a stall and then a right spiral downward. To recover from this flight condition you have to use the proper flight controls. In a downward spiral pulling up on the controls to recover or maintain level will exceed the structural limits of the aircraft and it may break apart by loosing a wing or control surface. The proper recovery is go to wings level, contol airspeed and do a smooth level off to maintain altitude. Doing it wrong can cost you. Each airplane has what is called a maneuvering spreed. This is the speed where you can do a full deflection of the flight controls without exceeding the structural limits of the airframe. In a case like this it is a very important speed limit.

That said, I have to say I have flown into a thunderstorm, dumb move on my part, and lost control of my plane. It does happen quickly. I went from 11,000 to 15000 in a flash and the instuments showed I was out of control. Recovery was in the clouds and by instruments and I turned back to where I came from cause that was where the good weather was. Then I informed ATC what had happened. I landed at a nearby airport to wait the weather out. I also checked the airplane to see if anything was bent and any rivets popped. I have stayed clear of that kind of weather since.

When I read stories like these I alway remember that encounter and remember how fast things happen.

Here is a video of a PC 12 doing stall tests. Stall Tests

As for these stall test, this is worst case situation. The PC-12 is a very sophisticated airplane that incorporates a auto ignition system below 500deg Celsius, think glow plugs for you non pilot types and a jet or turbo prop engine is much like a diesel engine requiring no spark plugs. This keeps the engine going at high angles of attack when air flow can be interrupted into the engine. Another system it has is a stick shaker and stick pusher. What it does as the onset of a stall occurs is the stick shaker does just that, shakes the stick (controls) to warn the pilot. If the pilot does nothing to correct the onset of the stall it actually pushes the nose over to prevent the stall. The pilot can overcome the pusher by applying aprox 60# of force to the controls.

This is more sophisticated than the last 3 jets I have flown. The PC12 is a state of the art airplane that employes more automation and system integration than 90% of the airliners out there flying.

This accident was nothing but pilot error, plain and simple. Its happened before and it will happen again. As a Commercial Pilot with a Airline Pilots Rating and multiple flight instructor ratings it always amazes me how someone can be so smart in business, be able to afford a 4 million dollar airplane like the PC12, and then want to fly it themselves with family and employees onboard. Hire a professional with years of experience if you are that smart and do your personal flying in something more your speed.. 99 out of 100 of these types of accidents always play out the same way, a guy with a big check book and small log book gets the hot rod airplane he always wanted and goes out and kills himself and a bunch of others. Look at history. There have been tons of these types of accidents and many in recent history. The NASCAR guys are known for this.

Chris

 

[orezok]

The NASCAR guys are known for this.

Chris

Alan Kulwicki died aboard the Hooters corporate jet flown by a "professional" corporate pilot. Hmmm...

 

[Runner]

Diamond,

I was hoping you'd chime in. You mention pilot error and I was wondering what type of error you believe may have occurred?

Do you suppose he flew into clouds and became disoriented, got into a thunderstorm and lost control, or what? Guess we may never know, but I can only imagine it would be easy to get into trouble quickly in a high performance plane like that.

If they were trying to get the plane to spin in that stall test, I would say that was a pretty darned quick recovery, not even a full turn.

 

[V1Rotate]

As for these stall test, this is worst case situation. The PC-12 is a very sophisticated airplane that incorporates a auto ignition system below 500deg Celsius, think glow plugs for you non pilot types and a jet or turbo prop engine is much like a diesel engine requiring no spark plugs. This keeps the engine going at high angles of attack when air flow can be interrupted into the engine. Another system it has is a stick shaker and stick pusher. What it does as the onset of a stall occurs is the stick shaker does just that, shakes the stick (controls) to warn the pilot. If the pilot does nothing to correct the onset of the stall it actually pushes the nose over to prevent the stall. The pilot can overcome the pusher by applying aprox 60# of force to the controls.

This is more sophisticated than the last 3 jets I have flown. The PC12 is a state of the art airplane that employes more automation and system integration than 90% of the airliners out there flying.

This accident was nothing but pilot error, plain and simple. Its happened before and it will happen again. As a Commercial Pilot with a Airline Pilots Rating and multiple flight instructor ratings it always amazes me how someone can be so smart in business, be able to afford a 4 million dollar airplane like the PC12, and then want to fly it themselves with family and employees onboard. Hire a professional with years of experience if you are that smart and do your personal flying in something more your speed.. 99 out of 100 of these types of accidents always play out the same way, a guy with a big check book and small log book gets the hot rod airplane he always wanted and goes out and kills himself and a bunch of others. Look at history. There have been tons of these types of accidents and many in recent history. The NASCAR guys are known for this.

Chris

Chris
I agree with everthing you said, I also used to fly PC-12s. I've done power off stalls with the stick pusher system overridden, it stalls just like a Cessna 172. I wouldn't want to do a full departure stall while overriding the pusher though.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Boy, not to take this thread down a different road (but why a plane crash would be in TBN anyway is a mystery) but I have always harbored a dream of a Pilatus as a personal plane and a Piaggio (http://www.controller.com/list/list.aspx?ETID=1&Manu=PIAGGIO&setype=1) if one of my movies is a major hit or I win the lotto...

I guess I don't get what I see as a sever stall characteristic that is demonstrated in the video. I know you have to test the envelope but are you saying that this is not the normal stall characteristic, and that the pilot is indeed pulling into a slip?