Oil & Fuel Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid.

   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid. #11  
Any chance you could do a vacuum check on your hydraulic circuit to see if it's drawing in air on the suction side?
It's an older machine, so maybe a loose clamp, pin hole in a tube or worn seal is letting a little air into the line upstream of the pump.
For example, replace the breather fitting/cap with a rubber bung & hook a vacuum pump with a gage to the bung to see if it holds a vacuum?
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid. #12  
I read somewhere that mixing dissimilar brands/types of oil can produce foaming. If it were me, I would just drain it, change any filter(s) involved then refill with Kubota hydraulic oil. Then see what happens.

I've heard that but never seen it. If true, wouldn't it affect every commercial TLB out there that uses rental hydraulic attachments driven by the tractor's hydraulics?
Most commercial TLBs run a variety of rental attachments depending on the job. Although I do hear what you are saying....in fact, I don't run rental attachments on our M59 simply because I don't want to contaminate the M59's trans/hydraulic oil with an unknown.
But I do run rentals on the JD310 because implements that fit the 310 are so expensive.
Good luck beats good planning,
rScotty
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid. #13  
Try warming it up with the brake off and see if the foaming still occurs. I am wondering if the brake material is just making contact rather than actually firmly on. In that case, is it possible the heat being developed by friction is causing the oil to vaporize at that braking surface? That would produce foam which would dissipate rapidly as the oil vapor is cooled by the surrounding oil. Plus take it for a run in an open area and see if the brakes actually work.
 
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   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid.
  • Thread Starter
#14  
If you can wait for the results before doing anything I recommend a used oil analysis. That would probably tell you if you had anything "bad" in the oil.

That is a good idea, I have never had one done before. Not sure where to take it. I have no tush on the B21, it is just going to be an "around the house" tractor and boat mover. It will get lots of use, but nothing that can't wait.
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid.
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Try warming it up with the brake off and see if the foaming still occurs. I am wondering if the brake material is just making contact rather than actually firmly on. In that case, is it possible the heat being developed by friction is causing the oil to vaporize at that braking surface? That would produce foam which would dissipate rapidly as the oil vapor is cooled by the surrounding oil. Plus take it for a run in an open area and see if the brakes actually work.

I had not thought of that. The brakes to work quite well.
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid.
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Any chance you could do a vacuum check on your hydraulic circuit to see if it's drawing in air on the suction side?
It's an older machine, so maybe a loose clamp, pin hole in a tube or worn seal is letting a little air into the line upstream of the pump.
For example, replace the breather fitting/cap with a rubber bung & hook a vacuum pump with a gage to the bung to see if it holds a vacuum?

I will give that a try, thank you.
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid. #17  
That is a good idea, I have never had one done before. Not sure where to take it. I have no tush on the B21, it is just going to be an "around the house" tractor and boat mover. It will get lots of use, but nothing that can't wait.

Blackstone Labs

Blackstone-Labs is my favorite, very personable and good to work with. Your local Caterpillar dealer can perform this as well.

Philip
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid. #18  
Try warming it up with the brake off and see if the foaming still occurs. I am wondering if the brake material is just making contact rather than actually firmly on.
I had not thought of that. The brakes to work quite well.
Do you mean you are warming it up by "dragging" the brakes?
The brakes are on the axles, so if not used for dragging then they don't come into the equation?
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid.
  • Thread Starter
#19  
Do you mean you are warming it up by "dragging" the brakes?
The brakes are on the axles, so if not used for dragging then they don't come into the equation?

The tractor was parked on a slight slope so I had the brakes on. It was not moving, just warming up while I did a few things. The range lever was in low intending for that to warm up the fluid faster. I guess if there was a slight creep to the HST it would have been working against the brakes, but I have never noticed any.
 
   / Kubota B21 Foaming Transmission Fluid. #20  
Any chance you could do a vacuum check on your hydraulic circuit to see if it's drawing in air on the suction side? [/QUOTE said:
Good thinking...but Ugh....that would cause bubbles of air to become entrained into the fluid flow. Not a good thing at all. When air-entrained (called "2-phase fluid") is drawn into the hydraulic pump it can and will cause rapid wear on the inside surfaces of the pump. But you wouldn't miss the warning sounds - the knocking & rattling sound when a hydraulic pump is cavitating is just flat unmistakable. It sounds somewhere between shaking marbles in a tin can and a distant gunfight. To make cavitation even easier to diagnose, the noise is obviously coming from the hydraulic pump and is clearly related to RPM and the load on the hydraulics. I don't think Tom mentioned any of those things. Pump cavitation is a serious "must find the cause & fix it right now" kind of thing. But if Tom didn't mention any pump noise in his original post, the chances are good that's not the problem. Plus, any trans/hydraulic oil that meets anyone's specs is specifically formulated to resist foaming due to entrained air. In fact the anti-foaming property is a major part of what makes it hydraulic oil in the first place.

Try warming it up with the brake off and see if the foaming still occurs.......wondering if the brake material is just making contact rather than actually firmly on. [/QUOTE said:
HST creep is at least as interesting as the entrained air...but in a different way. Reviewing the way the HST tranny on these Kubotas works - the speed is controlled by a load sensitive governor on the engine, and the load is set by the operator via the Forward/Neutral/Reverse pedal worked by the driver's right foot. That pedal has a couple of opposing spring sets working to make sure that it returns to the centered neutral position when you take your foot off it. With the pedal in the centered position, there isn't any HST fluid flow trying to move the tractor. So it shouldn't matter if the brake is on or what gear the selector is in. Easy to check out though - and one should. The test is: Does the machine try to "creep away" when it's idling?

ON OIL SAMPLING:
The trick is to find a good lab. Our local JD commercial equipment dealer uses a particular lab and I think the Cat dealer uses the same one. Stop by either one as both dealers will sell you a kit that you take home to get started on that process. This kit is just a few pieces of plastic designed to pull up an absolutely contamination-free oil sample which goes into the provided bottle which you then send to the lab yourself. The lab will be looking for parts per million, so contamination is to be avoided. They also want to know as much as possible about the history of the oil, your machine, and particularly what brand and type of oil it is. Reason for that is lab is add value to the analysis by giving you an idea of the life left in that oil. They compare what metal ions they find with what additives were originally in that particular brand of oil when it was manufactured. Depending on the lab, they will also look for gross contamination, but for that they also need to know what was in there originally.

My own take is that oil analysis needs to be done regularly to tell you much. But why not do it...shucks, it's an interesting process and you may get lucky and learn something on a one shot test.
I'd recommend using the dealer's kit at least the first time; labs tend to be very childish about how they want to see samples come to them. Kinda like two year olds at the dinner table.
And the kit cost is nominal. Expect a week or two to get the results back.
On medium sized TLBs, the total cost of the analysis is about the same as the cost of new filters and new oil. Or maybe slightly less since I'm remembering that our Kubota M59 has three factory filters in the trans/hydraulic system and holds about 11 gallons of oil. But it's close to a wash. The good news comes when the analysis saves you from an afternoon of laying under a tractor wrestling the dented center filter can while warm oil gently drips into one ear. It's on a big machine where they measure oil capacity in barrels that analysis really pays off.

Best of luck,
rScotty - an old time wrench-bender
 
 
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