Land Value Question

   / Land Value Question #1  

strum456

Platinum Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
794
Location
Westmoreland County PA
Tractor
Fords
If a parcel of land has a cemetery on it, does this affect the value a lot? There are 10 somewhat recent graves on a privately owned cemetery that has not done a lot of business over the years. My neighbor inherited this cemetery and would like to sell it

I am interested in the land and maintenance building, but I am not cut out for the burial business (I don't deal well with death). The cemetery has not done well at all as an investment by its previous owner, so I am looking at using the acreage that does not have graves for farming.

It seems to be extremely rare that a cemetery would be bought or sold. Few people seem to have experience with this. I'd appreciate any guidance.
 
   / Land Value Question #2  
I'm not sure I can adequately answer your questions, but when I was looking for land to buy, I did everything I could to ensure the parcels I looked at didn't have a cemetery. Maybe, like you, I didn't want to deal with it. Also, at least in Virginia, if you discover a cemetery, it is supposed to be reported to the Va Dept of Historic Resources...don't want to be involved with state bureaocity (sp) and what can and can't be done. Just easier not to deal with it!
 
   / Land Value Question #3  
Best advice anyone on a tracter forum can give you is contact a PA real estate attorney.
 
   / Land Value Question #4  
Haven't seen your question here before.

Of course you will consult a lawyer, but the first thing I would want to know is, are there cemetery lots sold that aren't used yet? People often buy burial plots for future use. If there are sold plots, that would make everything a bit more complicated I would think. And only a lawyer would know what sort of conditions persist, by law or by purchase contract, for the land owner's responsibilities to those plot purchasers.

If there are none sold for future use, then you would at least have to allow access to the cemetery I bet, and you may have an obligation for some upkeep of the existing graves.

Be interesting to hear what all you learn if you look into it further.
 
   / Land Value Question #5  
There are little family graveyards all over NC. I know of two small family plots that had subdivisions built around them and I am sure there are many, many more. When we were looking at land to buy we saw two properties that had graveyards. In once case, the graveyard really impacted the property so we left passed on that parcel. The other parcel was simply too far away from work to purchase. The graveyard on the last parcel was not big deal. The graves on the first parcel really limited the use of the property and we would have bid much lower as a result. In fact, the graves impacted the parcel so much we just kept looking.

Some people will not want to be near a grave yard. A coworker bought a house in a subdivision that was near a family graveyard and this was a concern for him. In the end, he bought the house and eventually sold it without a problem but that city has been well developed and land is at a premium.

The price of the land depends on what the market will bare. You would need to check with the laws and local regulations to see if the graveyard would impact what you want to do with the property. Would the landowner has to provide access to the graveyard for family visits?

Later,
Dan
 
   / Land Value Question #6  
It It varies by state of course but here burial lots are sold to the prospective tenants and their heirs etc. Once sold it is their property in perpetuity and you cant' disturb it except for eminent domain takings for public works and even then you have to exhume the remains and rebury them in an equivalent plot. Usually the sale price includes the perpetual care of the lot meaning mowing and fencing. You would have to review the records to see what property rights to those lots have been sold to know where the land stands.
 
   / Land Value Question
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Wow, it didn't take long to get some thoughtful responses here. Some good advice was given regarding upkeep, lots sold that aren't filled yet, etc.. I consider the current owner a trusted friend. They have maintained very detailed records regarding the cemetery. There are a few lots sold that are unfilled. I would also be responsible to provide access and upkeep of the grave area. I don't have a problem granting the wishes of a few that have already purchased plots. Mowing around the graves and allowing access to that area is inconvenient but is not a major concern. The current owners have an attorney that I'm confident will make us aware of all the legal responsibilities.

The main question is about the value of something like this. Most people understandably would not want to deal with it and would simply look elsewhere. However, I own property surrounding this cemetery on 3 sides. I have a unique interest that literally no one else would have. My wife is dead set against paying market value for a property with a cemetery on it.
 
   / Land Value Question #9  
Value is a tough one.

Until you completely understand what future burdens and encumbrances you would be buying, it makes it hard to know what discount to the price you apply for that future loss. For example, the purchased but not filled lots; were they sold with grave opening and closing fees included, and does it become your responsibility to provide that? Or, maybe the current owner puts enough money in escrow to pay for those things as needed and hires/contracts someone to perform the work.

As a starting point, I would put a value of zero on the portion of the property that is or will be cemetery, including enough border space for maintenance and whatever is needed for access from the road. From the remaining acres, starting at market value, I would deduct the anticipated future costs attributable to maintaining the cemetery. That financial burden will likely continue with your land, so if you ever sell it, you will receive less accordingly.

What is it worth to you to have control of a property that is in the midst of yours? To me, that is worth a good bit. Wives don't always think that way. I just bought 12 acres next to ours mostly for the sake of knowing it wouldn't become somebody's weekend beer bash home sitting next to our property line. The wife resisted, but I asked how much it would be worth to prevent that, never mind what the land is worth.
 
   / Land Value Question #10  
Wow, ,,,,
,,,, The current owners have an attorney that I'm confident will make us aware of all the legal responsibilities.

.
Just make sure that YOUR attorney agrees with him.
 
   / Land Value Question #11  
So basically you are only buying the plots that have not been sold? Are you assuming the maintenance of the cemetery? How many empty plots are you purchasing? Is there other open land included in the boundary of the cemetery that you would also be purchasing? What is the size of this non-plotted land? Can one dissolve all the unsold plots and make them open land thereby denying other family members from being buried near family? Is there an expectation by family members when they purchased the plot that the cemetery land would not be used for other purposes?
 
   / Land Value Question #12  
Just make sure that YOUR attorney agrees with him.

Yeah, I don't think the attorney we use would be willing to represent the seller and the buyer in this sort of transaction. It has legal ethics problems. That is not to say the seller's lawyer would be unethical, but many attorneys will avoid those situations.
 
   / Land Value Question
  • Thread Starter
#13  
If the time comes to buy, I will make sure an attorney representing me looks into my obligations. There are only a few unsold plots that would not make a difference one way or another-they will go right next to existing plots. There is presently a row of graves about 150' long. There is some space in between some of them, so there are only 10-15 graves max. The cemetery has been in business for at least 10 years, so it has not done much business. This is why I don't believe buying it as an investment with the intention of selling graves would be smart.

What I am interested in is about 3 tillable acres and a 30 x 60 maintenance building. The graves are unfortunately in a very incontinent location, right in front of the building (about 100' away and running parallel). Having people driving into the area to visit graves all the time will be undesirable to most buyers, including myself. How would you arrive at an offer if you were me?
 
   / Land Value Question #14  
You're buying a business. The reason you buy is the profit (revenue minus expenses). Look back at a three year average and I would make an offer based on that. In residential real estate I generally buy at a 10% return per year, but the expected return goes higher the less liquid the investment is. A cemetary is pretty hard to move. If I had to make an offer it would be around 3x profits and plan on paying no more than 4x profits.

I would expect to get the 3 acres for free and maybe add 20k for the building. The rest of the land has no inherent value any more, it can no longer be used for anything else.

Keep in mind this number might be zero or negative.

Feel free to PM me if you want me to help review financials.
 
   / Land Value Question #15  
I know we had to sign papers recently due to Cabot putting in a gas well around us that we did not have any burial plots on our property. I would make sure that all gas oil rights transfer though.
 
   / Land Value Question #16  
I'm not sure I want to own one or maybe I'm SURE I DON'T want to own one. Like others already stated there could be some legal issues you/he have not brought up.

Can you "Continue Selling Plots" at a premium?
Can you keep it in the family (Trust) and use it for yourself/family?
Do you have to maintain it in any specific condition/conditions/mow/plow snow/insurance in case someone falls over a marker or vandals stopping buy for a drink & shag ?
What happens if someone tears up stones/markers will you have to replace them?
If some one is stuck in winter there while visiting at x-mas will you be there to pull them out?

all that wondering on your behalf I know there are a lot of OLD cemeteries in my area and have seen/visited some just to see them. There are many in some state of disrepair for sure and kind of sad to think that at some point they were well maintained by a family near a homestead all of the members long ago forgotten and the family farm broken up and turned into subdivision or overgrown weedy plots along side a corporate mega farm...

Mark
 
   / Land Value Question #17  
I agree with others that the value of the land as a business might be a negative value. That is, the seller would have to pay you to take it.
You would have to really search to find out all the future liabilities involved and what your obligations would be. Far from having a property with a rental or stream of income attached would have a property with a guaranteed outgo of $$ attached to it. You could even have a wide open issue with groundwater contamination at some future point? Who knows? Times change. The liability could, and actually is widely open-ended and unlimited.

Your vision is clouded by the desire to buy property that you own on three sides of so you would need an attorney with an objective viewpoint for guidance. It's easy for me to say, since I don't have an emotional involvement here but I would be temped to not buy it or to maybe have it put out to bid or auction by the seller to know it's worth. Not much can ever be done with that cemetery that will impact the value of your property. It's just my two cents but I would probably walk away.

If you do decide to buy it, incorporate it so as to not risk your personal assets in the event something goes wrong. And get business insurance in case someone trips over a headstone or vandalizes something. Your homeowner's insurance will almost certainly not cover any liability with the cemetery. Know too that your homeowner's insurance may or may not cover your equipment while mowing or working there. Just a few more things to think about.
 
   / Land Value Question #18  
...

all that wondering on your behalf I know there are a lot of OLD cemeteries in my area and have seen/visited some just to see them. There are many in some state of disrepair for sure and kind of sad to think that at some point they were well maintained by a family near a homestead all of the members long ago forgotten and the family farm broken up and turned into subdivision or overgrown weedy plots along side a corporate mega farm...

Mark

One property we looked at that had a cemetery in the middle of the most usable part of the parcel. The cemetery was located that we could easily give access to any surviving family members without impacting our use but the location of the cemetery limited our use of the land too much. Twas very sad to see how many babies and children were buried in the cemetery. It was a pretty large family cemetery, I would guess 30 or so graves with most of the dead being under 12.

We say another small cemetery on a nice parcel that was just too far out for us and there was a house about 100 years old on the place. The neighbor was running cattle and he had a piss poor fence that cattle had broke through and they went through the cemetery and tore the place up. :mad: The cattle knocked over some tomb stones and broke them. The tomb stones were made from thin local sandstone. The names and dates were barely scratched on the rock and hard to read. The person marking the tomb stones was either illiterate and/or dyslexic since some of the letter were written backwards. Marking that tomb stone took some work. Some of the dead had died in the early/mid 1700s. :shocked: Today this place is still fairly remote. It was really remote in the mid 1700s and I would think those homesteaders still had to worry Indian raids back then.

I know of two cemeteries located in large subdivisions. I think this bothered some people but I always figured the cemetery would make a good, quiet neighbor. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Once upon a time I was on a canoe trip in the middle of no where Down East. There was some land half way through the trip that we had permission on which to camp. The trip was 20-30 miles and for much of that distance one or both sides of the river were owned by the Cone family. There was a small dirt road next to the camp site and after we had setup camp and eaten people started to go for a walk on the road. Some of the walkers found an old cemetery and late at night we decided to go see the cemetery. :confused3::laughing::laughing::laughing: It just happened to be around Halloween and there was a full moon rising over the river. :shocked::D:D:D

The old dirt road was only a single track and it was mostly sugar sand. In front of the cemetery was a green road sign marking the location of the graves. The cemetery was buried in the woods and not visible from the road at all. The cemetery was very small and had a wall of cement block built around the graves with an metal gate. There was a large monument for the first couple buried into the cemetery. They were a young couple who lived through the Late Unpleasantness and they died towards the end of the 1800s. What was sad, yet interesting, was that you could see how the family fortune declined through the generations from the grave markers. The oldest marker was a tall stone monument 5-6 feet tall. With each passing generation, the markers got smaller and cheaper until the last ones were the small, cheap metal markers.

When I was younger, my dad and I used to go camping on Forest Service roads in the NE GA mountains. I assume these roads are all blocked off now. We would get way back in the mountains on these trails and we would often find small family cemeteries along these tracks. The vast majority of the graves had no markers at all though I remember one that had a nice, large granite stone. The buried person died in the early 1920s. I would bet very few people had ever seen that grave yard, there were maybe 6-8 graves, and danged few had seen them since that last marker was placed. Now, I would guess the road has grown over and that grave yard is lost in the mountains. Kinda sad that the family moved and/or died off loosing the connection to their family.

Later,
Dan
 

Marketplace Items

2008 INTERNATIONAL MA025 FLATBED (A55745)
2008 INTERNATIONAL...
2020 BOBCAT T870 SKID STEER (A60429)
2020 BOBCAT T870...
iDrive TDS-2010H ProJack M2 Electric Trailer Dolly (A59228)
iDrive TDS-2010H...
2025 CFG Industrial QK18R Mini Excavator (A59228)
2025 CFG...
Caterpillar 2PD5000 5,000LB Diesel Forklift (A56857)
Caterpillar...
Tank Only (A59076)
Tank Only (A59076)
 
Top