Land Value Question

   / Land Value Question #11  
So basically you are only buying the plots that have not been sold? Are you assuming the maintenance of the cemetery? How many empty plots are you purchasing? Is there other open land included in the boundary of the cemetery that you would also be purchasing? What is the size of this non-plotted land? Can one dissolve all the unsold plots and make them open land thereby denying other family members from being buried near family? Is there an expectation by family members when they purchased the plot that the cemetery land would not be used for other purposes?
 
   / Land Value Question #12  
Just make sure that YOUR attorney agrees with him.

Yeah, I don't think the attorney we use would be willing to represent the seller and the buyer in this sort of transaction. It has legal ethics problems. That is not to say the seller's lawyer would be unethical, but many attorneys will avoid those situations.
 
   / Land Value Question
  • Thread Starter
#13  
If the time comes to buy, I will make sure an attorney representing me looks into my obligations. There are only a few unsold plots that would not make a difference one way or another-they will go right next to existing plots. There is presently a row of graves about 150' long. There is some space in between some of them, so there are only 10-15 graves max. The cemetery has been in business for at least 10 years, so it has not done much business. This is why I don't believe buying it as an investment with the intention of selling graves would be smart.

What I am interested in is about 3 tillable acres and a 30 x 60 maintenance building. The graves are unfortunately in a very incontinent location, right in front of the building (about 100' away and running parallel). Having people driving into the area to visit graves all the time will be undesirable to most buyers, including myself. How would you arrive at an offer if you were me?
 
   / Land Value Question #14  
You're buying a business. The reason you buy is the profit (revenue minus expenses). Look back at a three year average and I would make an offer based on that. In residential real estate I generally buy at a 10% return per year, but the expected return goes higher the less liquid the investment is. A cemetary is pretty hard to move. If I had to make an offer it would be around 3x profits and plan on paying no more than 4x profits.

I would expect to get the 3 acres for free and maybe add 20k for the building. The rest of the land has no inherent value any more, it can no longer be used for anything else.

Keep in mind this number might be zero or negative.

Feel free to PM me if you want me to help review financials.
 
   / Land Value Question #15  
I know we had to sign papers recently due to Cabot putting in a gas well around us that we did not have any burial plots on our property. I would make sure that all gas oil rights transfer though.
 
   / Land Value Question #16  
I'm not sure I want to own one or maybe I'm SURE I DON'T want to own one. Like others already stated there could be some legal issues you/he have not brought up.

Can you "Continue Selling Plots" at a premium?
Can you keep it in the family (Trust) and use it for yourself/family?
Do you have to maintain it in any specific condition/conditions/mow/plow snow/insurance in case someone falls over a marker or vandals stopping buy for a drink & shag ?
What happens if someone tears up stones/markers will you have to replace them?
If some one is stuck in winter there while visiting at x-mas will you be there to pull them out?

all that wondering on your behalf I know there are a lot of OLD cemeteries in my area and have seen/visited some just to see them. There are many in some state of disrepair for sure and kind of sad to think that at some point they were well maintained by a family near a homestead all of the members long ago forgotten and the family farm broken up and turned into subdivision or overgrown weedy plots along side a corporate mega farm...

Mark
 
   / Land Value Question #17  
I agree with others that the value of the land as a business might be a negative value. That is, the seller would have to pay you to take it.
You would have to really search to find out all the future liabilities involved and what your obligations would be. Far from having a property with a rental or stream of income attached would have a property with a guaranteed outgo of $$ attached to it. You could even have a wide open issue with groundwater contamination at some future point? Who knows? Times change. The liability could, and actually is widely open-ended and unlimited.

Your vision is clouded by the desire to buy property that you own on three sides of so you would need an attorney with an objective viewpoint for guidance. It's easy for me to say, since I don't have an emotional involvement here but I would be temped to not buy it or to maybe have it put out to bid or auction by the seller to know it's worth. Not much can ever be done with that cemetery that will impact the value of your property. It's just my two cents but I would probably walk away.

If you do decide to buy it, incorporate it so as to not risk your personal assets in the event something goes wrong. And get business insurance in case someone trips over a headstone or vandalizes something. Your homeowner's insurance will almost certainly not cover any liability with the cemetery. Know too that your homeowner's insurance may or may not cover your equipment while mowing or working there. Just a few more things to think about.
 
   / Land Value Question #18  
...

all that wondering on your behalf I know there are a lot of OLD cemeteries in my area and have seen/visited some just to see them. There are many in some state of disrepair for sure and kind of sad to think that at some point they were well maintained by a family near a homestead all of the members long ago forgotten and the family farm broken up and turned into subdivision or overgrown weedy plots along side a corporate mega farm...

Mark

One property we looked at that had a cemetery in the middle of the most usable part of the parcel. The cemetery was located that we could easily give access to any surviving family members without impacting our use but the location of the cemetery limited our use of the land too much. Twas very sad to see how many babies and children were buried in the cemetery. It was a pretty large family cemetery, I would guess 30 or so graves with most of the dead being under 12.

We say another small cemetery on a nice parcel that was just too far out for us and there was a house about 100 years old on the place. The neighbor was running cattle and he had a piss poor fence that cattle had broke through and they went through the cemetery and tore the place up. :mad: The cattle knocked over some tomb stones and broke them. The tomb stones were made from thin local sandstone. The names and dates were barely scratched on the rock and hard to read. The person marking the tomb stones was either illiterate and/or dyslexic since some of the letter were written backwards. Marking that tomb stone took some work. Some of the dead had died in the early/mid 1700s. :shocked: Today this place is still fairly remote. It was really remote in the mid 1700s and I would think those homesteaders still had to worry Indian raids back then.

I know of two cemeteries located in large subdivisions. I think this bothered some people but I always figured the cemetery would make a good, quiet neighbor. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Once upon a time I was on a canoe trip in the middle of no where Down East. There was some land half way through the trip that we had permission on which to camp. The trip was 20-30 miles and for much of that distance one or both sides of the river were owned by the Cone family. There was a small dirt road next to the camp site and after we had setup camp and eaten people started to go for a walk on the road. Some of the walkers found an old cemetery and late at night we decided to go see the cemetery. :confused3::laughing::laughing::laughing: It just happened to be around Halloween and there was a full moon rising over the river. :shocked::D:D:D

The old dirt road was only a single track and it was mostly sugar sand. In front of the cemetery was a green road sign marking the location of the graves. The cemetery was buried in the woods and not visible from the road at all. The cemetery was very small and had a wall of cement block built around the graves with an metal gate. There was a large monument for the first couple buried into the cemetery. They were a young couple who lived through the Late Unpleasantness and they died towards the end of the 1800s. What was sad, yet interesting, was that you could see how the family fortune declined through the generations from the grave markers. The oldest marker was a tall stone monument 5-6 feet tall. With each passing generation, the markers got smaller and cheaper until the last ones were the small, cheap metal markers.

When I was younger, my dad and I used to go camping on Forest Service roads in the NE GA mountains. I assume these roads are all blocked off now. We would get way back in the mountains on these trails and we would often find small family cemeteries along these tracks. The vast majority of the graves had no markers at all though I remember one that had a nice, large granite stone. The buried person died in the early 1920s. I would bet very few people had ever seen that grave yard, there were maybe 6-8 graves, and danged few had seen them since that last marker was placed. Now, I would guess the road has grown over and that grave yard is lost in the mountains. Kinda sad that the family moved and/or died off loosing the connection to their family.

Later,
Dan
 
 
Top