LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL

[sd455dan]

I've wondered the same thing.... Is DPF a legal & political solution rather than a real solution? Does it really work?

How in the world does running an engine faster all day and then periodically burning off the carbon benefit anything? Doesn't DPF simply take big chunks of soot and make it into smaller types of carbon? If we add in a regeneration cycle that adds up to more carbon in the atmosphere at the end of the day.... not less.

rScotty

Well if nothing else the tractor will likely burn through more diesel, and at diesel prices "these days" that would be enough to want the amount of time between regen maximized.
Was just looking at some posts about how much extra diesel is burned in a full size diesel truck per regen and the number quoted was up to a 1/2 gallon. With diesel around here over $5 that's an extra $2.50 per regen.

My nephews 2012 DPF'd Cummins powered Ram always had over a quart of diesel in the engine oil at change time as well,(also measured over full on the dipstick,) that can't be good for lubricity of the oil either. Tier 4 is very likely using/ burning more refined petroleum than tier 2 tractors.

ps. It does make a lot of sense that elevating burn temps with a catalyst involved will dramatically reduce pollution. It just seems like Tier 4 is a band aid until a more "efficient" system is figured out.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL

Here's my regen history, the best I have record of it. I'm sure I missed a few early on before I recognized there was a real problem and started keeping track. I have been having excessive regens almost since the tractor was purchased.

Dealership has been great at getting the tractor in for service and trying a few things, but unfortunately the problem has not been resolved. They called me yesterday after hearing back from LS and informed me that LS’ stance is that regeneration every 2 hours is normal. If regeneration is occurring more frequently than 2 hours apart, there could be an issue.

I find that unacceptable. I use the tractor at home, it is not a business machine, but based on an 8 hour work day, what should be a normal regen cycle of around 50 hours, would give me 6+ days between regens, and LS is telling me that 4 times per day is normal!

First some qualifying information.

• Tractor is run consistently between 1800 and 2400 RPM
• Always used on road diesel filled from high turnover stations in 5 gallon cans, I fill 2 or 3 cans, 10-15 gallons at a time, so there has been a lot of fuel turnover, not the same, or old fuel being used. Tried with and without fuel additive (Power Kleen or Howes) no change. At one point LS blamed fuel quality, but refused to test the fuel in the tank to prove it.
• DPF switch left in regeneration mode, I have never inhibited regeneration.

Occasionally before a regen, the DPF regeneration indicator will blink on/off at 1 sec intervals indicating a >120% soot load, then soon after it will go through a normal regen cycle without me needing to initiate it via the DPF switch. I have not kept a detailed record of when the indicator flashes before a regen, but I have noticed it several times (and I’m sure I missed it blinking a few times too.) Normally it seems to go right into regen mode (solid light) indicating 100% soot load, not >120%, but not always.

I’ve also had a few regens complete and then within 5 minutes the tractor goes into limp mode which a restart clears. That has happened maybe 3 times or so. I don’t recall what was displayed on the instrument panel other than the red ! (Vehicle control error warning indicator.)

Another thing I have noticed more recently, this may be indicative or not; I have noticed a much more pronounced diesel odor in the exhaust than in the past. While nothing like my previous non tier IV motor which was sooty, the MT240 used to burn extremely clean with no noticeable exhaust odor, now there is a diesel exhaust smell, not horrible, but definitely noticeable. Maybe now because it has 300 hours that is to be expected. There is no visible soot or black smoke, just a diesel odor that was not there previously. I may also hear injector or valve chatter that is louder then before as well.

Additionally there were a couple regens run at the dealership during troubleshooting and maintenance which I don't have listed below.

Regen time on hour meter, all regens completed successfully after ~15 minutes:

4 (ran by dealer due to error code, day after I brought it home)
101
106
112
115 (Dealership replaced DPF Sensor, removed and cleaned DPF)
118
119
148
165
175
187
191
197
213
224
234
250
254 (Dealership replaced ECU and DPF sensor. Invoice notes “REGEN OCCURRING TO OFTEN WITH NO SOOT LOAD”)
259 (In Dealership for service, ran diagnostic, nothing significant noted)
262
269
276
300
307

I'm looking for advice on how to move forward. First I need to be able to get the dealer to move forward since LS who is paying for the warranty work says this is NORMAL OPERATION.

Next I see 2 different paths.

1. DPF System has a fault
2. DPF system working normally, tractor producing too much soot

Comments?

So you know: the field fix for tier 4 is to install a warmer thermostat. Pull your T-stat, figure out what temperature it starts to open and what temp it is fully open, then go to the largest auto parts store you can find with a caliper. Working with a competent ASE parts guy, you should be able to find a 185-195 degree T-stat as a drop-in replacement. Putting in a warmer thermostat gets the engine up to operating temperature quicker leading to reduced regen cycles and especially so anywhere every day isn't 60 degrees F and above it will not cause your engine to overheat. As a rule, mechanics have been changing to warmer thermostats in cars and trucks in my area of Minnesota since before I started as a tech 31 years ago.

 

[Will S]

I wonder about a lot of things with all this business. When I was searching the web for some documents that might reference " minimum interval for DPF regen" (I didn't find anything), I did run across this, which was posted in January 2021. About half way down the page, there is a flow chart series of questions to determine if Tier 4 applies to my (over 25hp) tractor engine.

I was more than a little surprised at what I saw, and I'm wondering can this be true?

Do you need to be Tier 4 compliant?

 

[cat fever]

I didn't read all the posts but my Kioti goes about 60-75 hours before a regen is needed.

 

[tractorred]

LS SAYS A REGEN EVERY 2 HOURS IS NORMAL

Here's my regen history, the best I have record of it. I'm sure I missed a few early on before I recognized there was a real problem and started keeping track. I have been having excessive regens almost since the tractor was purchased.

Dealership has been great at getting the tractor in for service and trying a few things, but unfortunately the problem has not been resolved. They called me yesterday after hearing back from LS and informed me that LS’ stance is that regeneration every 2 hours is normal. If regeneration is occurring more frequently than 2 hours apart, there could be an issue.

I find that unacceptable. I use the tractor at home, it is not a business machine, but based on an 8 hour work day, what should be a normal regen cycle of around 50 hours, would give me 6+ days between regens, and LS is telling me that 4 times per day is normal!

First some qualifying information.

• Tractor is run consistently between 1800 and 2400 RPM
• Always used on road diesel filled from high turnover stations in 5 gallon cans, I fill 2 or 3 cans, 10-15 gallons at a time, so there has been a lot of fuel turnover, not the same, or old fuel being used. Tried with and without fuel additive (Power Kleen or Howes) no change. At one point LS blamed fuel quality, but refused to test the fuel in the tank to prove it.
• DPF switch left in regeneration mode, I have never inhibited regeneration.

Occasionally before a regen, the DPF regeneration indicator will blink on/off at 1 sec intervals indicating a >120% soot load, then soon after it will go through a normal regen cycle without me needing to initiate it via the DPF switch. I have not kept a detailed record of when the indicator flashes before a regen, but I have noticed it several times (and I’m sure I missed it blinking a few times too.) Normally it seems to go right into regen mode (solid light) indicating 100% soot load, not >120%, but not always.

I’ve also had a few regens complete and then within 5 minutes the tractor goes into limp mode which a restart clears. That has happened maybe 3 times or so. I don’t recall what was displayed on the instrument panel other than the red ! (Vehicle control error warning indicator.)

Another thing I have noticed more recently, this may be indicative or not; I have noticed a much more pronounced diesel odor in the exhaust than in the past. While nothing like my previous non tier IV motor which was sooty, the MT240 used to burn extremely clean with no noticeable exhaust odor, now there is a diesel exhaust smell, not horrible, but definitely noticeable. Maybe now because it has 300 hours that is to be expected. There is no visible soot or black smoke, just a diesel odor that was not there previously. I may also hear injector or valve chatter that is louder then before as well.

Additionally there were a couple regens run at the dealership during troubleshooting and maintenance which I don't have listed below.

Regen time on hour meter, all regens completed successfully after ~15 minutes:

4 (ran by dealer due to error code, day after I brought it home)
101
106
112
115 (Dealership replaced DPF Sensor, removed and cleaned DPF)
118
119
148
165
175
187
191
197
213
224
234
250
254 (Dealership replaced ECU and DPF sensor. Invoice notes “REGEN OCCURRING TO OFTEN WITH NO SOOT LOAD”)
259 (In Dealership for service, ran diagnostic, nothing significant noted)
262
269
276
300
307

I'm looking for advice on how to move forward. First I need to be able to get the dealer to move forward since LS who is paying for the warranty work says this is NORMAL OPERATION.

Next I see 2 different paths.

1. DPF System has a fault
2. DPF system working normally, tractor producing too much soot

Comments?

 

[tractorred]

LCoastie, As a retired service rep. for a large tractor manf. that also has the Regen tractors, every two hours of regen is not normal at all. Sounds to me that LS either does not know what the issue might be or possible is buying time to figure it out. From what you have indicated of the rpm and no soot and regens within 5 mins. these issues should put the light on for someone at LS. I would call LS directly and start at their national service manager and then higher if need be. Need to be forceful but [don't go out of bounds.]

 

[ovrszd]

We all need to continually remind ourselves, his tractor does not regen every 2 hours. He never said it did and has repeatedly said it does not. He provided very detailed information as to it's regen rate since he's had it.

I think his situation is simply what it is. Nothing is going to change that except possibly his usage.

 

[Midniteoyl]

We all need to continually remind ourselves, his tractor does not regen every 2 hours. He never said it did and has repeatedly said it does not. He provided very detailed information as to it's regen rate since he's had it.

I think his situation is simply what it is. Nothing is going to change that except possibly his usage.

It ran *95hrs* before its first normal regen, then started regening every 8.9hrs on avg after that, and that just ain't right.

LS telling you, after looking at it *3 times* for the same issue, throwing parts at it, then telling you, 'Oh, every 2hrs is normal so your OK', when that didn't fix it... is complete BS.

 

[the old grind]

I won't gamble on my dealer's 'back room guy' since the former one (awesome fellow) has since earned his position (seniority, experience, knowledge) and is now the 'parts counter guy' since Ron retired. Can only guess who replaced him. lol

I'm a DIY guy who hopes to die with a wrench in hand, maybe not typical, but if you 'have the book' and a little knack can't anyone DIY with the best of 'em? (Tractor or a desk, dogs! Pick one. LOL)

That said, and apologies for deep pockets, but symptoms are not unlike a leaky injector ... bad fuel, bad filter not withstanding. For $150-$200 I'd have any tractor's injectors rebuilt, pop-tested, as if a 'test-load' for shot-gunning a problem so far from reasonable expectations.

 

[mred2]

On my LS4150, the regens have not been a problem. The first one at about 35 hours, the next at about 50. I can't tell you more as I don't really notice them. I do know it happens more often as to how I drive the tractor. Start, put out hay, shut it down, regens more often. Pulling a mower, disc, a lot less. One thing, I am old school, I never use the foot throttle. I noticed a long time ago on older tractors, that when you rev the engine up, black comes out of the exhaust. I set the rpm and leave it.
If it is not how the tractor is run, most likely not getting hot enough or fuel problem.