Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200

   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #11  
"this is what we call FUD Fear"

Fear is usually of the unknown. I call it "speaking from experience" since I own a Millermatic 180 and also spent a good amount of years pioneering the development of high power switching power supplies.

Nothing I have stated is outlandish and can be substantiated by a little research which is what I encourage anyone interested in the topic to do.

Does anyone find themselves asking how it is that Everlast can "outperform" the Miller by a substantial amount but still cost much less? You should ask, and to help with answering the question, like I said, visit the welding forums.
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #12  
"this is what we call FUD Fear"

Fear is usually of the unknown. I call it "speaking from experience" since I own a Millermatic 180 and also spent a good amount of years pioneering the development of high power switching power supplies.

Nothing I have stated is outlandish and can be substantiated by a little research which is what I encourage anyone interested in the topic to do.

Does anyone find themselves asking how it is that Everlast can "outperform" the Miller by a substantial amount but still cost much less? You should ask, and to help with answering the question, like I said, visit the welding forums.

+1 QFT.

Talk to any guy who does this for a living. Look on welding trucks. Go to any shop in any plant. Look in barns art the welder sitting under the bench rotting away, yet still works. You might not see only miller, Lincoln has a large presence with Esab/Airco dragging up the rear. Any one of these brands would be a fine buy. I guarantee you wont see Everlast or Lotos or Longeviety or whatever flavour of the week it is.

That speaks more volumes as to what lasts Vs. any FUD coming out of these newly sponsored forums.
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #13  
+1 QFT.

Talk to any guy who does this for a living. Look on welding trucks. Go to any shop in any plant. Look in barns art the welder sitting under the bench rotting away, yet still works. You might not see only miller, Lincoln has a large presence with Esab/Airco dragging up the rear. Any one of these brands would be a fine buy. I guarantee you wont see Everlast or Lotos or Longeviety or whatever flavour of the week it is.

.
There is a huge difference between a comercial welders that is on a job site and what we are buying for home use. I have never seen a Miller180 on a job site or in a comercial fab shop. We are talking about affordable welders that will do what we need to do and will hold up. I have a Lincoln powermig 255 at work and would love on at home but cannot justify spending $2400.00 for it. I will be talking to Mark next week about a imig 200.
Bill
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #14  
My last post on this topic.

I was making comments on two fronts here. First, I don't care if Miller, Lincoln or Everlast is the manufacturer of the inverter welder. My point was, and remains that they all use a pulse width modulator circuit to control high power semiconductors. This circuit does not have the robustness of a more basic transformer setup and will not last as long. How many years do you expect to get out of your computer before it fails? Not many and when it does fail chances are you aren't going to able to fix it yourself. Just like an inverter welder. How many years do you expect to get out of your Kubota before it fails? Probably quite a few and when it does fail, chances are you will be able to fix it. Just like a transformer setup. Sure Invertecs and the like are small and handy but there's a trade off, just like everything in life.

Secondly, anyone should automatically be skeptical of a comparison sheet produced by an Everlast salesman where all 100 features show the Everlast as superior. Especially given the reputation and desirability of Miller and also considering Everlast is a Chicom product. To reiterate, my second point is not to blast Everlast but to encourage anyone to research. A tractor forum is not the best place to seek advice on welders. Everyone will recommend the brand they own, kinda like tractors and ATV's. It's wiser to seek the advice of professionals, chances are they have used a wider variety of brands and know more of what to look for than your neighbor with the Hobart and home-made log splitter. Would you walk into a Ford dealer and ask him what the best make of car is? Don't be silly. :confused2:
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #15  
Most computer issues I have experienced are virus or disk related. I still have the LCD monitor, and printer from a computer I bought 10 years ago and they work fine (though the ink is $$$). The computer failed after 5 years when a virus got into the bios and it was cheaper to replace it. I left it on and running 24/7.

The components you find in a inverter welder are similar but definitely much heavier and geared toward longer life and easier service. Most new commercial Lincoln engine drive welders use electronic chopper technology as well which are similar.

As far as being skeptical...Any reasonable mind compares and contrasts what is being said. I would expect it. But the hard comparisons are true. These are not subjective claims. I would venture to say anyone familiar with the Binzel product would say its inferior in any way with durability, ergonomics, and over all design to the Miller stock gun. A look at the drive systems, most people would favor the all metal construction. Duty cycle can be easily tested and proven. Most of these things I mentioned are easily verifiable.

I have said it before but it is worth repeating. The factories that manufacture our product are private, not state owned in China. Most people have misconceptions that all companies in China are state owned. They are not. China has allowed private enterprise for some time now.

Additionally, our units use name brand electronic components, with many of the companies based and manufacturing in the US and worldwide. Texas Instruments, IXYS, Infineon, Panasonic, Sharp, DN etc are all common well known electronic companies.

I am offering a choice...Not telling anyone what to buy. If the Miller is equal, I said it was equal. There are common points of items they share. I guess if I announced that our spool guns come from the same assembly lines in China that Miller uses, that would be a surprise?
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #16  
troutsqueezer Lincoln and Miller have had problems in the last few years. Friend of mine is a pipeliner in Nashville he has a Pipe Pro 304 had nothing but problems with it. Miller finally replaced it after countless times back to the repair shop. Miller even sent their techs to look at the machine.
Lincoln is having problems with their Classic 300D's, a lot of pipeliners are wishing they never bought one. There is a guy on Welding Web converting a Classic 200D, he dumped the generator replaced it with a 24KW 30KW 3-phase generator so he can run his Miller XMT-350 Inverter. If a guy was happy with a machine you think he'd go through all this trouble?

Just like Ford, Chevy, and Dodge, Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart are all capable of building lemons!;)
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #17  
In the past, welding power supplies have been based on transformers. The power supply took in 60 Hertz 230, 460 or 575 volt power. A metallic transformer changed it from the relatively high input voltage to 60 Hertz current at a lower voltage. This low voltage current was then rectified by some sort of rectifier bridge to get direct current (DC) welding output. Control of this output was usually performed by some sort of relatively slow magnetic amplifiers.

Transformers are relatively inefficient operating at 50 or 60 Hertz. A lot of heat is generated in the transformer, and the transformer must be relatively large and heavy. A significant part of the power cost goes into heating the transformer and the surrounding air. Most such welding power supplies weigh around 400 pounds and have a shape something like a 32 inch cube. Additionally, if 60 Hertz is used, control signals are limited to being issued at no more than 120 per second, so it's impossible to pulse the welding current any faster than this.

In inverter controlled power supplies, the same incoming 60 Hertz power is used. However, instead of being fed directly into a transformer, it is first rectified to 60 Hertz DC. Then it is fed into the inverter section of the power supply where it is switched on and off by solid state switches at frequencies as high as 20,000 Hertz. This pulsed, high voltage , high frequency DC is then fed to the main power transformer, where it is transformed into low voltage 20,000 Hertz DC suitable for welding. Finally it is put through a filtering and rectifying circuit . Output control is performed by solid state controls which modulate the switching rate of the switching transistors.


What advantages does this new inverter controlled design offer? First, the main power transformer, which operates at 20,000Hertz is vastly more efficient than 60Hertz transformers, which means it can be much smaller. Remember, transformer - based machines typically weigh 400 pounds plus and are a 32 inch cube. The accompanying photo shows the Lincoln line of inverter - based gas tungsten arc welding (GTAW) power supplies. The machine in the center, the V205, weighs 33 pounds and is 9 inches wide, 19 inches deep and 15 inches high. The other two machines are DC only inverters and are even lighter and smaller. So there is a huge advantage in weight and portability in favor of the inverter - based machines.

There is another advantage of the inverter power supplies - power cost. The inverter equipment is much more efficient than transformer equipment. For instance, the current draw at 205 amperes for the Lincoln V205 is 29 amperes on 230Volt single phase power. The current draw of an older transformer welder is typically 50 to 60 amperes on 230 Volt single phase power when welding at similar currents. While the cost savings in switching to inverters is often overstated, under normal circumstances, it is safe to say that annual power savings are approximately 10% of the power supply purchase price.

The other significant advantage of inverter power supplies is that, by "chopping up" the incoming AC so finely, we end up with a very steady DC, without the typical 60 Hertz ripple. This results in a much smoother, more stable DC welding arc.



By packaging two inverters inside one case inverters can supply AC. By having them run at different polarities and alternately switching them on and off, a pseudo AC output was generated. Some inverters still generate AC in this manner. There are also more sophisticated methods of generating AC today, but for the purposes of this article, it's easier to think of generating the AC from two inverters at opposite polarities.


The ability to generate AC is what really makes the inverter shine for welding aluminum using GTAW. The fact that the arc voltage never truly goes through zero means that the AC arc is much more stable than previously. Most inverter - based GTAW power supplies do not need the high frequency to be on continuously for stability. In fact, the Lincoln V205 has no provision for using continuous high frequency. It will automatically be extinguished as soon as the arc starts.. The elimination of continuous high frequency drastically reduces the amount of RFI generated by the power supply.

Second, the fact that we can send control signals at 20 kilohertz means that we can vary the frequency of the AC welding output. Older machines were 60 Hertz AC output only. The V205 can put out AC at anywhere 20 and 150 Hertz. Higher frequencies can be beneficial in welding thin materials. As the frequency is raised, the arc cone, and the weld, become narrower, resulting in deeper penetration.


Those are not my words but Frank G. Armao from the Lincoln Electric Company. It's clear to anyone that coil based technology is dying just like push rod technology in cars.
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #18  
+1 QFT.

Talk to any guy who does this for a living. Look on welding trucks. Go to any shop in any plant. Look in barns art the welder sitting under the bench rotting away, yet still works. You might not see only miller, Lincoln has a large presence with Esab/Airco dragging up the rear. Any one of these brands would be a fine buy. I guarantee you wont see Everlast or Lotos or Longeviety or whatever flavour of the week it is.

That speaks more volumes as to what lasts Vs. any FUD coming out of these newly sponsored forums.

And Snap-on and MAC tools are great too. But for most people good old Craftsman gets the job done just fine. The reason you find all those good old welders rusting away in a barn is because the coil in them is so heavy that's the only place they can be stored.
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #19  
And Snap-on and MAC tools are great too. But for most people good old Craftsman gets the job done just fine. The reason you find all those good old welders rusting away in a barn is because the coil in them is so heavy that's the only place they can be stored.

Right... has nothing to do with durability. Leave an inverter especially a chinese one out in a cold damp barn for 5 years and tell me how it works.

Heavy? what are you going to do, take it in your purse to dinner? ITS A WELDER, BUILD A CART or add a runner kit if you want to move it. The Thunderbolt 225 Ac/DC is only 104 lbs. When your talking about 400lb machines, your into large industrial multiprocess types like a dimension.
 
   / Millermatic 180 vs I-mig 200 #20  
I'm not worried about. So much so my Everlast PP60 is sitting on top of my Lincoln 255 MIG in my unheated garage. I have no plans on keeping it anywhere else. So why is an Inverter so susceptible to being left outdoors when other electronics are fine? The electronics on my Lincoln have been outside for almost 10 years now with no problems.

Clearly Lincoln feels differently than some here about Inverter tech.
main_inverter2.jpg

or is somebody going to say that having a rack holding 6 inverters is just for Joe 6 pack and no pro welder would use such a thing. Finally do you think that Lincoln, Miller, or any other large welder mfg has it's own semiconductor fab to make it's own insulated-gate bipolar transistors? Do you understand how Smei-conductors are made and why is much less important as to where it's made but what equipment that's used? Do even know IGBT technology is being used by companies like Toyota in their Hybrid cars and in industrial applications like high speed electric trains?
 
 
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