My Diesel Storage and Transfer Set-up

[Ford850]

If you mean the red and the black clamps / No I did not.

I took the transformer back eariler today and was told by a couple of guys behind the counter and a customer there that the transformer was 120 volt ac input and the output was 12 volt ac.

Now I'm having a tough time finding one that is 12 volt DC out put.

I'd take Patrick's advice and look for a basic battery charger.

 

[patrick_g]

I'd take Patrick's advice and look for a basic battery charger.

I think I may have mentioned that TRANSFORMERS do not put out DC!

Transformers put out AC. Reversing the connections will not possibly make a difference with AC since the connections are being reversed for you by the power company many times a second!

LBROWN59, A battery charger can run a motor like for a pump even though it does not put out smooth DC. The motor integrates the irregular waveform.

If you have even a small 12 volt rechargeable battery like for a riding lawnmower or garden tractor you can hook the battery charger to that and to the pump and get by with a charger rated for around 10-12 amps. IF yoiu are using just the charger to run the pump you will want one with a higher rating, maybe 15-20 amps (which costs more.)

If you use your tractor or truck battery to run the pump (with the engine switched off) and hook up a battery charger rated for 10 amps or more to that battery while pumping fuel it will work fine and you can leave the charger on the battery for just a little longer than fuel pumping to be sure pumping fuel has not run down the battery.

This will let you buy a smaller charger (10-12 amp). I had previously assumed you had a battery charger but if not then buying one is a good idea as they can come in very handy every so often.

Buying a 12VDC power supply will typically cost more than a battery charger of similar rated output and although it would run the pump fine, or power a radio or whatever, a power supply does not make the best battery charger. The best bet is the battery charger for which you will have other uses.

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

I think I may have mentioned that TRANSFORMERS do not put out DC!

Transformers put out AC. Reversing the connections will not possibly make a difference with AC since the connections are being reversed for you by the power company many times a second!

LBROWN59, A battery charger can run a motor like for a pump even though it does not put out smooth DC. The motor integrates the irregular waveform.

If you have even a small 12 volt rechargeable battery like for a riding lawnmower or garden tractor you can hook the battery charger to that and to the pump and get by with a charger rated for around 10-12 amps. IF yoiu are using just the charger to run the pump you will want one with a higher rating, maybe 15-20 amps (which costs more.)

If you use your tractor or truck battery to run the pump (with the engine switched off) and hook up a battery charger rated for 10 amps or more to that battery while pumping fuel it will work fine and you can leave the charger on the battery for just a little longer than fuel pumping to be sure pumping fuel has not run down the battery.

This will let you buy a smaller charger (10-12 amp). I had previously assumed you had a battery charger but if not then buying one is a good idea as they can come in very handy every so often.

Buying a 12VDC power supply will typically cost more than a battery charger of similar rated output and although it would run the pump fine, or power a radio or whatever, a power supply does not make the best battery charger. The best bet is the battery charger for which you will have other uses.

Pat

I am going to try and add an idea to Pats as usual excellent advice. I did notice when you were talking about the train transformer. I wondered then if you were going to have a problem but thought maybe the train transformer had a dc rectifier circuit in it and it actually put out dc. Now I see that my first concerns were correct. You can use that transformer and get someone that knows some electronics to build you a full wave rectifier and then have dc out. That would not be too hard to do and not super expensive you just need 4 diodes that are rated at 15 or 20 amps. Now that I have said all my techie stuff here is what I would do. I would go to walmart, or samsclub, or auto parts store etc and get one of the smaller battery jumper packs. Sams has one that not only has the battery pack but has a air compressor and emergency light. The one at sams is about 40.00 walmart has them in that price range also. You can hook the jumper cables of the battery pack to the pump and it should run it with no problem. The battery packs come with an ac charger so when you are not using it you can just leave it plugged in and it will keep it charged and ready for use. The other advantage to using a jumper pack is that if you have a dead battery on your tractor or car you can use it to jump start the vehicle since that is what they were originally designed for. Basically they are a 12 volt battery and a trickle charger so the current coming out from them should be pure dc. That is what I would do.

 

[gemini5362]

I just did a quick online check. In my area samsclub has those jump packs for 39.38 and home depot has them for 41.58.

 

[patrick_g]

Thomas, The jump pak is another good idea. I don't have one, as I favor a battery charger but they are a good thing too. Having both is not a bad idea. One consideration is the amp hour capacity of the jump pak. If you transfer much fuel you may flat out the little battery in the jump pak before you get done.

Buying a full wave bridge module (little box with 4 connections, two for the input AC and two for the output DC) and wiring it up to the transformer is trivial but... The first time you accidentally touch the DC leads together the little FWB module may give up the ghost. Some interesting things happen: 1. you get a current spike that may exceed the instantaneous current rating of the device, 2. the sparks you create with the intermittent contact interrupting the current flow allow the inductance of the transformer to generate some hefty voltages which may exceed the max reverse voltage rating of the device.

To build a circuit that will not self destruct requires short circuit/overload protection and starts getting above trivial construction. Any of several folks here could tell him how to wire the FWB module as it truly is trivial and some of us cold design a self protected circuit but...

Just buying a battery charger rated for at least (and hopefully more) more than 10 amps will git 'er done. A Jump Pak may be satisfactory too, if you don't need to run the pump very long or very often. Once deeply discharged it takes a while to charge them back up. Both charger and Pak are good ideas and provide a tool for other uses than fuel transfer. Whether or not the Pak will pump long enough or frequently enough is the question I can't answer without more information about usage of the fuel system. How many gal/min will the pump transfer? Now many amp-hours does the candidate Jump Pak have?

Pat

 

[gemini5362]

Thomas, The jump pak is another good idea. I don't have one, as I favor a battery charger but they are a good thing too. Having both is not a bad idea. One consideration is the amp hour capacity of the jump pak. If you transfer much fuel you may flat out the little battery in the jump pak before you get done.

Buying a full wave bridge module (little box with 4 connections, two for the input AC and two for the output DC) and wiring it up to the transformer is trivial but... The first time you accidentally touch the DC leads together the little FWB module may give up the ghost. Some interesting things happen: 1. you get a current spike that may exceed the instantaneous current rating of the device, 2. the sparks you create with the intermittent contact interrupting the current flow allow the inductance of the transformer to generate some hefty voltages which may exceed the max reverse voltage rating of the device.

To build a circuit that will not self destruct requires short circuit/overload protection and starts getting above trivial construction. Any of several folks here could tell him how to wire the FWB module as it truly is trivial and some of us cold design a self protected circuit but...

Just buying a battery charger rated for at least (and hopefully more) more than 10 amps will git 'er done. A Jump Pak may be satisfactory too, if you don't need to run the pump very long or very often. Once deeply discharged it takes a while to charge them back up. Both charger and Pak are good ideas and provide a tool for other uses than fuel transfer. Whether or not the Paon k will pump long enough or frequently enough is the question I can't answer without more information about usage of the fuel system. How many gal/min will the pump transfer? Now many amp-hours does the candidate Jump Pak have?

Pat

The ones I was talking about have 400 amp hours. Mine is about that size and I can run my 10000 pound winch with it for a short period of time. I dont imagine that a 10 amp pump will tax it that much. I agree that a battery charger will work well also and both have dual purpose uses. My idea for the jump pack is that it might be easier to hook up than the battery charger if you use the tractor battery for a filter. Also the jump packs are handy if you have a dead battery and you are not close to AC to hook up the jumper cables. After the last time that I tried jumping a battery with a short and had to replace an alternator I try to look for methods that dont involve using jumper cables. You can charge the jumper packs several ways. there is a small ac-dc charger unit that comes with it. there is usually also a lighter plug connector that has larger wires so I am assuming more amperage transfer capacity and I believe you can also hook it up to a hot battery and let it get a partial charge off of that. I just got mine because it was handy and I was in a hurry. For more money you can get some with really high current capabilities. If I see the need for it I might get one of the 800 to 900 amp hour models. The only thing about those are that they are usually just a jump pack the smaller ones like mine usually have the pump and light in them. Just the thing to carry along on a trip.

The idea of making a full wave rectifier circuit was a joke. (I Need to remember to put that disclaimer in there). I saw that he had taken the transformer back. I would have just taken and made the device put an 1 amp fast blow in the primary circuit put a large current zener across the outpout and crossed my fingers

 

[patrick_g]

The ones I was talking about have 400 amp hours.

The idea of making a full wave rectifier circuit was a joke. (I Need to remember to put that disclaimer in there).

I would have just taken and made the device put an 1 amp fast blow in the primary circuit put a large current zener across the outpout and crossed my fingers

Wow, I had no idea you could get 400 amp hours or even way more in one of those little jump paks!!!

My diesel starting batteries are big heavy honkers and weigh a lot and only have 100 AH each. What battery technology are they putting in those things?

I assume there is a large unstated humor disclaimer attached to both the fast blow fuse and the zener!

Please accept my humor disclaimer regarding the comments about size of the jump pak batt and question about batt technology.

Serious comment follows: Those little hand held jump paks DO NOT HAVE 400 amp hour batteries! I was relatively ignorant regarding jump paks, never having owned one but I am not entirely ignorant regarding battery technology and energy density afforded by same. I looked up a couple representative jump paks and found one by Black and Decker rated for 300 amps which has a 9 amp hour battery.

I found a HD pak capable of starting big rig diesels for $289 which has a peak output capability of 2000 amps but it is powered by a 34 AMP Hour sealed lead acid battery!

A brief review of amp hours. Amp hour ratings are standardized as 20 hour ratings, i.e. a 100 amp hour battery will supply 5 amps for 20 hours. Unfortunately there are reciprocity effects with many battery technologies, including lead acid, and the faster you take out the energy the less you get in total. No way will a 100 AH battery give you 100 amps for an hour.

So what about the 9 AH battery in the B&D jump pak rated for 300 amps? To make the math simple lets say it has 10 amp hours. Then you can get 1/2 of an amp for 20 hours. It will not give you 10 amps for an hour. It will not even give you an amp for 10 hours. If you put a 10 amp load on it (subject pump) then it will be asked to provide 20 times as much current as the amp hour rating. It will NOT give you 10 amps for more than a few minutes before it discharges sufficiently to lose pumping power. Current supplied will drop well below 10 amps rather quickly.

I would not suggest this as a method of pumping very many gallons of fuel at a time. The $289 version with its 34 amp hour battery would work better but would likely be marginal at best filling or emptying a drum.

Being ignorant of the jump paks I had to do a little research to get the facts but they confirmed my suspicions. The little cheap paks do not have enough amp hours to do a good job of running a pump to transfer meaningful quantities of fuel. Recovery time is likely an extended period so pumping a few gal and waiting for it to recharge to pump a few more gal is not something I would recommend.

I stick with the battery charger suggestion. I still may buy a jump pak for all the conveniences mentioned but NOT for running a pump to transfer fuel.

Thomas, thanks for instigating my look at jump paks. I'll probably be getting one of those.

Pat

 

[LBrown59]

So what about the 9 AH battery in the B&D jump pack rated for 300 amps? To make the math simple lets say it has 10 amp hours. Then you can get 1/2 of an amp for 20 hours. It will not give you 10 amps for an hour. It will not even give you an amp for 10 hours. If you put a 10 amp load on it (subject pump) then it will be asked to provide 20 times as much current as the amp hour rating. It will NOT give you 10 amps for more than a few minutes before it discharges sufficiently to lose pumping power. Current supplied will drop well below 10 amps rather quickly.
1*I would not suggest this as a method of pumping very many gallons of fuel at a time.
2*I stick with the battery charger suggestion.
******Pat*********

Pat

I just got back from looking at battery packs and Battery Chargers at wall mart and auto zone.
1*What turned me off about battery packs is they are manual recharging not automatic recharging. I don't want something that I have to baby sit with and keep watch over in order to keep it charged up.
The most I'd ever be pumping at 1 time would be 30 gallons and that would be seldom if ever.
The pump is rated at 5.5 gallons per minute so that translates to about 5.45 minutes to empty a 30 gallon drum.
For just filling the tractor it would never be more than a maximum of 4 gallons or about a 45 second run time of the pump.
2*As for a battery Charger I have no idea of what I need as to out put volts and number of amps.
I'm trying to stay under 30 or 40 bucks here!

 

[patrick_g]

LBROWN59, You don't need a battery charger or a jump pak to pump such small volumes of fuel.

At 10 amps, with 5 gal per min you only need 6 min to transfer 30 gal, consuming only 1 amp hour. Even with reciprosity losses your truck battery will not mind the 30 gal transfer. Your tractor battery will not mind the brief 10 amp load to fill its tank. If you are concerned that one of the batts is a tad old and weak you can get a HF batt maintainer for under $10 that costs less than $1 a month to operate (at 12 cents per kWh) and doesn't have to be run 24-7 so it can be cheaper. One of these batt maintainers will not hurt the batt if left plugged in for years.

Buy some BIG alligator clamps large enough to grab a battery post or clamp and put them on the pump's power leads (extending them if you need more length for convenience.) If you extend them use larger diameter wire than the pump came with (smaller gauge number.)

To make it really convenient, wire a cord to the battery connections (solenoid is a good place to get 12 volts and there are plenty of options for ground.) Put a polarized socket on the end of the cord and use a mating plug on the pump wires to get power for the pump. I recommend a switch in the cord so you can turn the pump on and off without having to plug/unplug. Bring this socket out to the grill where it is not in the way but accessible. If you want to be professional (and safe) wire in an auto reseting thermal breaker in the hot lead. This will prevent burning up wires if you get a short or something goes wrong. The thermal breaker needs to be rated for more than 10 amps. You can use an in-line fuse instead but fuses are a one shot proposition if there is a problem.

Happy pumping.

Gemini, Looks like some of the jump paks could do the job for such a small transfer but apparently the cheap ones don't have automatic chargers and need baby sitting.

Pat

 

[LBrown59]

1*LBROWN59, You don't need a battery charger or a jump pak to pump such small volumes of fuel.

At 10 amps, with 5 gal per min you only need 6 min to transfer 30 gal, consuming only 1 amp hour. Even with reciprosity losses your truck battery will not mind the 30 gal transfer. Your tractor battery will not mind the brief 10 amp load to fill its tank.

2** If you are concerned that one of the batts is a tad old and weak you can get a HF batt maintainer for under $10 that costs less than $1 a month to operate (at 12 cents per kWh) and doesn't have to be run 24-7 so it can be cheaper. One of these batt maintainers will not hurt the batt if left plugged in for years.

3*To make it really convenient, wire a cord to the battery connections (solenoid is a good place to get 12 volts and there are plenty of options for ground.) Put a polarized socket on the end of the cord and use a mating plug on the pump wires to get power for the pump. I recommend a switch in the cord so you can turn the pump on and off without having to plug/unplug. Bring this socket out to the grill where it is not in the way but accessible. If you want to be professional (and safe) wire in an auto reseting thermal breaker in the hot lead. This will prevent burning up wires if you get a short or something goes wrong. The thermal breaker needs to be rated for more than 10 amps. You can use an in-line fuse instead but fuses are a one shot proposition if there is a problem.
Pat

1* I do if I want to get away from having to use the tractor battery and that is what I'm trying to do.

2* If I were going the battery maintainer route I think I'd just get a small motorcycle or lawn tractor battery and use it to run the pump to avoid having to mess with getting to the tractor battery with the pump cable.

3*This would be fine if I was only filling one tractor with the pump but in my case I would have to do this with all 3 tractors. I'd rather not go that way.


The battery charger still sounds like the best approach.
What I like about the charger over the battery maintainer is nothing is drawn from the wall plug unless I'm using the pump whereas with the battery maintainer it would be left plugged in and drawing from the wall plug 24/7.
Being plugged in 24/7 the maintainer would also be subject to damage from electical storms where the charger would not be exposed to that risk.