Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?)

[pattycake]

I'm new here, and kinda new to tractors. I bought about 80 acres three years ago and got a low hours (200hrs) CT-28 McCormick thrown in with the deal. I've now used the tractor enough to know that I need to buy a brand where parts are more readily available.

Here's my dilemma - after stalling multiple times brush hogging and tilling with the McCormick, I've pretty much decided that I need more than 28 HP. But, I am "old school" and not too keen on pushing the RPM's up to the recommended value on a tractor that has the emissions stuff even if it's just to run the fence line. On my shuttle shift McCormick, I can idle over to where I need to go and then, if tilling or brush-hogging, rev her up to PTO speed as needed. When done, I can drop the RPM's and idle back to the house.

When I was shopping new tractors, the dealer demo'ing the tractors (kioti and Kubota) all cranked up the RPM's immediately after starting the tractor. Not doing anything, just sitting there - kinda hard to talk and discuss the tractor when it's screaming at 2000 rpm.

In addition, I keep hearing people complain about the regen, and other issues related to the emissions. But unless I buy used, if I want a 35-40hp tractor, it will have the emissions stuff. I am tempted to buy <25hp just to get away from the emissions stuff, but then I'd be right back where I was with the stalling in high grass/mahaya.

I brush hog about 15 acres of mahaya 2 or 3 times a month, I till about 3 acres as needed for planting (or when the hogs rut things up), and I am constantly in the woods cleaning up atv trails that my kids rut up filling holes with river sand.

My question... should I be concerned about getting a 35-40hp tractor with the emissions stuff, or drop to the 25hp tractors that don't have it (and possibly again be under-powered), or forget buying a new tractor and instead, try to find an older pre-emissions low hours (under 300hrs?) 35-40hp tractor?

Sorry for the long explanation

-pat-

 

[Jstpssng]

Your question has been hashed and rehashed on this and other sites. My viewpoint is that we felt the same way 40+ years ago when automobiles started to have emission controls; yet they last rwice as long or longer than they did back then. JMHO but to restrict yourself due to fear of emissions is rather short sighted.

 

[ovrszd]

Welcome to TBN Pat!!!

I think you've already answered your question regarding HP. You need more than you already have. If you buy a new tractor that throws you into the Emissions discussion.

I totally agree with you concerning rpms. In smaller tractors it doesn't bother me so much to run at higher rpm. In a 40Hp+ tractor it aggravates me to have to do that. I'm just like you, I do most of my work just above idle. Having more HP allows that.

There's a lot of debate here on TBN in regards to Tier IV equipped tractors. Many, many opinions. Those that don't own a Tier IV tractor generally talk against them. Those that do own a Tier IV tractor generally talk about it not being a big deal.

On the surface it appears your only way to avoid Tier IV emissions would be to buy a used tractor, pre emissions. If doing that I would look for a 40HP+ tractor. I wouldn't want to spend the money necessary to only gain 10HP or so.

Prepare yourself for the discussion to begin. Lots of Winter bored tractor owners always looking for something to debate. This subject is near the top of the list. Again welcome to TBN.

 

[jeff9366]

I brush hog about 15 acres of mahaya 2 or 3 times a month, I till about 3 acres as needed for planting (or when the hogs rut things up), and I am constantly in the woods cleaning up atv trails that my kids rut up filling holes with river sand.

My question... should I be concerned about getting a 35-40hp tractor with the emissions stuff, or drop to the 25hp tractors that don't have it (and possibly again be under-powered), or forget buying a new tractor and instead, try to find an older pre-emissions low hours (under 300hrs?) 35-40hp tractor?

A 40-horsepower tractor will allow you to spin a 72" Rotary Cutter through very tall grass.

15 acres X 3 times per month is 45 acres. For me, a 72" Rotary Cutter would be minimum.



I have a 2013 purchased, Tier IV / DPF tractor. Most of my work is in woods, so it runs at moderate revs.

You can run a Tier IV tractor slow but you cannot regenerate during tractor work at slow rpms. The alternative is to park, then perform an active regeneration, which requires parking, then setting the throttle to 2,200 rpm for around 16 minutes to heat the DPF sufficiently to incinerate accumulated soot. Parked fuel regeneration cost $1.00.

Tier IV emission controls and DPFs began to phase in dealer tractor inventories ten years ago.
Old news in 2019.

Consensus considers DPF problems 90% caused by operators who do not carefully read regeneration procedures in Operator's Manual or refuse to follow the procedures. Many small property users regenerate just once per year. This creates regeneration procedure uncertainty in itself. (Regeneraton occurs every ~~60 engine hours. Non-commercial users average 80 engine hours per year.)

Operator Manuals for DPF equipped compact tractors do a poor job of explaining DPFs and a poor job of explaining regeneration cycles. Most manuals do not inform that filter soot accumulates faster during low weather temperatures, none inform time required for DPF to attain 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, the ignition temperature for diesel soot and none address faster soot accumulation at higher altitudes. It seems to me a DPF temperature readout on electronic instrument panels would address many DPF complaints, as would more descriptive technical writing.



Diesel Particulate Filter supersedes tractor muffler.
At some point in time DPF needs to be replaced.
At some point in time tractors with mufflers need the muffler replaced.

Tire wear and tire replacement will cause as many headaches and more expense than DPF for most long term compact tractor owners who read and comprehend their Operator's Manual.

 

[MF2604h]

Check out the massey ferguson 2604h. That痴 what I have and there痴 no def and no dpf filter. It痴 a strong 45 hp tractor. If you need a bigger tractor I think the MF 4707 is the same way. Good luck on your search.

 

[jeff9366]

Beginning about thirty-three horsepower most tractors have Diesel Particulate Filters.

A few Tier IV compliant tractors between 26 and 75 hp use DOC (Diesel Oxidation Catalyst) conversion. DOC is of similar construction to DPF. Both DPF and DOC are honeycomb ceramic filters which supersede the muffler. The DOC forces engine exhaust over a honeycomb ceramic structure coated with platinum, palladium, and rhodium. These catalysts oxidize carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons into carbon dioxide and water at hot exhaust temperature.

DOC tractors have an DOC oven hot all the time, DPF tractors have a DPF oven hot intermittently.

There is no free lunch.

 

[ericm979]

It's not that you can't run it at low rpms at all, it's that the emissions system needs to get hot enough often enough to burn the soot off. If you're spending 10 minutes idling down the road and then a couple hours at PTO RPM working the engine running a brush hog or whatever, that's not going to cause a problem. Even so, with a DPF and regen system like most Tier 4 tractors have, if you don't work it hard often enough, it'll just do regens more often.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

OP,

I would not even consider getting a tractor with less hp to avoid emissions. That would just be silly. You clearly need more hp than what you have now. Why on earth would you spend money again to have the same low hp issues. If I had to mow 15 acres of grass 3 times a month, I'd be looking at a 10' or 12' batwing mower, and enough hp to keep it cutting at a moderate fast walking speed. I find the Rhino 10' and 12' mowers interesting, and seem to be hp efficient in their operation.

I think 40-50 hp is your minimum target, and possibly 60 hp depending on what mower you go with.

There are "active" emissions systems and "passive" emissions systems. Not all are created equal, and not all operate the same way.

Some fan boys of certain tractor colors, think that ALL tractors operate the same way that theirs does. This is not the case. On a "passive" system, there is no way to induce a "regen", and there is no "scheduled regens" at any specific timeline.

But make sure you only look at tractors with the required hp to get the work done that you need. Focusing on <25hp tractors to avoid emissions is not the choice you're going to want to make. Your specific hp requirements are going to supersede that.

 

[pattycake]

Thx everyone for the sage advice and input so far... I look forward to a lot more.

One thing I failed to mention.... on the cleaning up the atv trails, it is very tight - the CT-28 McCormick can barely make it to the back of the trails... but most sections are very tight and, five of those 15 acres that need to be mowed are at the back of the trails with deer blinds, feeders, etc that I need to mow at least once a month - that's the main reason I was thinking 35-40hp. (to be able to get the jobs done, but still be able to maneuver thru the tight woods to fix the atv trails at the back of the property).

Other:
4 foot tiller
5 foot box blade
5 foot titan brush hog

 

[shooterdon]

I don't understand why you need to park a tractor during regen.

I agree the manuals are crap...well at least the one with my LS. The dealer told me to ignore my manual when I had issues with my first regen. His advice. Don't delay it...when it wants to go into regen let it do its thing. I am about 30 hours from my next regen so we will see how it goes.

BTW, the first time, I got a flashing light and I could not get it to regen. after reading the manual. The dealer came in at 9:30 PM and "forced" a regen with his computer. He told me it was at 96% and that was why it had not self regened. BTW, great dealer, no charge for the service call. The whole process was done in less than 30 minutes and the regen time was about 15-20 minutes. Lots of smoke but so what.