new tractor idea possibly....

[boggen]

finally got into "ilogic" of setting parameters and adding rules.
digging a bit deeper, and can work with "visual basic" programming code. *smiles*
and the basic built into autodesk inventor "ilogic" / creating a custom rule has if/then/else and loop functions. though very generic versions of them.

*ear to ear grin* i can work with that!

tagging a link for tomorrow, for autodesk inventor API (programming)
Autodesk - Developer Center - Course Schedule

 

[PapaPerk]

how are electrical motors going to hold up, when they get completely submerged under water and/r caked with dirt, that is a few inches thick? how is the "heat" generated from the electrical motor, going to hold up in those type of situations?

you really can not put a fan on the motor, and/or rely on "wind" of just going 30 to 70 MPH through the field to cool the motors.

any sort of internal fan. that requires any sort of *its on tip of my tongue*.. baffles and air ducts. to keep rain water and like out, and your risking flooding the motor, when ya go through any sort of mud puddle found in fields, and other nasty areas.

if a heat sink, was placed on a electrical motor, to help reduce heat. you are still at risk of mud build up. and reducing how much can be removed.

===========
hyd motors, the hyd oil itself, can be cooled at a different location than were the hyd motor is. and in that help keep the "temperature" at the hyd motor down.

===========
ya a blanket statement comment, of not wanting to submerge anything into any sort of water, or get mud build up on things. but if that is the case, ya sitting in the shed not doing squat.

a train, the wheels do not go through mud or snow, well i am sure they do, but once snow gets to a certain point, i would imagine snow plows get added to the front of the trains. to keep all the wheels on the track.

electrical cars / trucks. i really can not bight into, at least everything that i have seen so far, is made for highways, and streets were there is no mud / water.

there are some electrical tractors folks have done, and ones i have seen have been tractors that have been modified, were the engine was switched over to the generator, and removing drive shaft between engine and transmission. and placing a electrical motor back on final drive area of the tractor. keeping the motors up and out the way of water and mud.

=======

at moment, i just do not see how a electrical motor located at in the wheels / rim. or just offset just outside of the wheel. could hold up.

and due to how the SSTT (sideways snake train tractor) would move, with both transport wheels, and then with large AG tires and/or tracks. i do not see how it would be possible to use drive shafts, to keep the electrical motors up higher off the ground. so they do not get submerged under water or caked with mud, in the every day life, of a field tractor. and if it was possible, (most likely is) adding the extra drive shafts, (like transfer cases for 4WD / MFWD) would add more complexity and points of failure.

=================
then again, i very well could be wrong. i know, i do not know enough about electrical motors, let alone experience. to fairly judge them. would loved to be proven, wrong!

and i know "i just walked right into it" so lets hear it!

You bring up a good point regarding motor cooling. In order to keep the motors small, water cooling maybe the best solution. I agree air cooling is no good.

A good application of sealed water cooled motor to study is underground mining equipment. These motors must be sealed due to potential explosive gas encountered in the mines. Water is pump through the miner into water jackets that surround motors and then sprayed out onto the coal or ore to reduce dust. This is a very effective system.

Your system could use a similar set-up as the mining machine... except you would recirculate the water (closed loop) to a radiator. The system would be 100% sealed.... so no issues with mud getting in motors, etc. The motor can be directly attached to the wheels using a planetary gear train. Very rugged and very simple! Modern large dump trucks, wheel loaders, etc use this system. If you can use a brushless motor... all the better!

I believe the hydro system will have too much power loss on a machine as large as you are talking about. And will be especially limited at higher speeds. Even a small hydro compact tractor (5000 lbs) must use a 3 speed gearbox to compensate the hydro motor for different speed and load conditions. And they only have a top speed of 14 mph! Your tractor must have major pulling power and I'm just not "feeling" hydro drive for it.

Electric or Hybrid vehicles are exposed to extreme conditions during normal operation. Water is always an issue. Hybrid vehicles use a cooling system to keep the motor controllers and motors cool. The systems are fully sealed and have no issues when operating in mud and water.

 

[PapaPerk]

Great example of electric motor hubs operating in extreme conditions.... Of course in this case the machine isn't cheap! :laughing:

Looks kinda like your SSTT ey?

 

[boggen]

Debbie, from John Deere, just called me, approx. 20 minutes ago. Noted she would pass this thread to the R&D department, noted she could not promise anything, and just pass along the info. but hey, all wanted was some contact info. to get things moving.

boy was phone call, a disaster on my part. all focused and dug into something else. and was caught completely off guard with phone call. *shrugs* *looks happy*

 

[boggen]

Great example of electric motor hubs operating in extreme conditions.... Of course in this case the machine isn't cheap! :laughing:

Looks kinda like your SSTT ey?

View attachment 283096View attachment 283097

You do not leave much to chance do you! no wiggle room to work with :laughing:

ya, i knew i walked into it pretty good at end of the one post. with antifreeze/water mix. and setting up a radiator. and i also knew my mind, was getting tweaked out for what ever reason. of getting over the idea of using an electrical switch. to adjust how much amps/volts went to a electrical motor. vs a hyd valve with an electrical actuator on it.

but more to the point is the 2 cooling hoses. (cold in, hot out) lines. and then wrapping my mind around, needing to run some heavier wires, to and from motors.

the wires connections themselves, are going to be a problem. i am not familiar with any sort of larger size connectors for electrical wire, beyond "water tight" connections for conduit to run wire in. i am not sure if a simple rubber boot that could be physically moved about. to deal with wires on repairing things, would hold up long term. the nearest thing i can think of, using some sort of silicon or polyurethane or some form of calking tube. to apply something to water tight connections of electrical wires.

well a suppose a generic water proof/dust proof wiring harness connection could work. that has a 0-ring or 2 to seal things. but how do you deal with, when a wire gets snagged, and pulled. and redoing a wire, into a wire harness end connector...

i suppose awe i do not know the technical name. a plastic cinch? pushes over wire end and over the insulation, and is kinda in shape of a "cone" with slots around the perimeter of it. kinda like a compression fitting of a gas line, and tightens things down around the wire.

====================
as far as gear reduction, and 1 to say 4 gear box. ya i know, MPH, both in field and in transport mode is still up in the air. planetary gears or other.

i really do not want to add a centralized transmission / gear box on the SSTT main frame. and in that rather have, each set of transport wheels, or large AG / R1 Tires, or tracks, have there own motor/s, /transmissions, and switches / sensors. on each doing. or near to that. some of it has to do with overall length and distances between each wheel set / tracks placement on the main frame. other. i could see a few folks. tossing the transport wheels, and adding another set of tracks in that spot. and then using some sort of modified "trailer" to transport the SSTT. or upgrading, from say AG/R1 tires, to tracks. another part is being able to "adjust" wheels and tracks. to some degree. for spacing for crops, to other. and perhaps "turning into a robot transformer in idea" between planting to harvesting, and turn into a better unit geared for harvesting or planting. pending on the upcoming season.

 

[boggen]

i guess i need to research / look at some electrical switches internals, to get grasp, of the mechanics of them, in how they operate. along with terms, used for the different switches. i would imagine there is a better designed setup, for the physical contacts. inside the switches, that would be wanted, over other designs. both for long term use and hold up to vibrations and wide range of temperatures, but also possibly being able to replace the contacts or repair / replace things that would be prone to wear over the long term.

some thing for electrical motors.

====================
think i am going to hold off, digging real deep into electrical motors, till start of next week. hopefully give me enough time to finish out the tutorials on autodesk inventor, and see if i need to dig into another software for running multi simulations. and spitting out information form the simulations.

 

[boggen]

i know i will need to deal with it soon or later, is patents / copyright, and the like. along with dealing with anyone that has replied to this thread. once those $$$ signs gets involved. man, i hate approaching the subject. just bringing it up, is going to offend someone, and someone else may get really into it, to point of lawsuit or some such. and honestly, not prepared to deal with any of the sort.

when initially creating the thread on TBN for me, was to get some help / feedback, nothing more to it than that, to see what might come of it. as things have further progressed, my thinking has changed, to a point that it is very possible, and more of gaining contacts, and gaining info on who has replied to the thread, to approach later on as things progress. also to help get folks use to the idea, of a different "type" of tractor, and how it might operate in the fields.

================
as much as i thought i was digging a deeper hole for myself a few minutes ago. i think i got a better "business model" to follow. that might work, short and long term. and that is, what many "open source" software, go by, the General public license agreements or the like.

were, it is free to use, for non-profit organizations or like, and freely to distribute the information as long as credit and blah blah blah is noted. but not able to use for commercial use / doings were money would be made, without direct signed authorization by the developer/designer. or how ever it is worded.

Man a lawyer would have a field day with above paragraph.

==============
see if i can restate things... a better way.

*eats lunch* and my train of thought has left me.

i am looking for something,
---that allows, others to help / give feed back / work on the SSTT and/or STB. and still gives credit to those folks and/or companies.
---no one / entity / company and plural forms, can make a profit of the doings, without direct signed consent.

thinking it still keeps me in control of things, to a point, were i can still sign a contract/s or like. and i would be required to give credit. to those that have done work on the project/s. and in doing so, does not imply any sort of "money" being exchanged or implied.

though i am not sure how above might apply to copyrights, and patents. i would imagine, if someone came up with this nitfy little doing, that works, and it was patented, the given person / company. would be listed on the patent. but the entity in control of the patent or like, that may gain a profit, of the patent. would be, who ever, i signed the contract/s with. that basically kicks out the little guy, that did things, in gaining any sort $ of doing from the idea.

with open source software code, you are normally able to make changes or what not, as long as credit is given, and blah blah blah, is kept with the doings.

i think i need to get my mind over the idea, of work, vs idea, vs credit. there is a difference. and because many things can move so quickly with source code itself. and knowledge and ability is there. that the "idea" itself is for most part is mute in point. and it is more about work done, and shown, put into a project, and credit noted. vs the idea itself. when it comes to open source software.

but as good as that last paragraph sounded to me. there is a snag, and that is, an attempt. keep some what control to a given point. to promote my own self. (other words i need to making a living as well).

and this about the time, i wish i lived in the age of "star trek" were a value of X for given work done, is no longer there for everyone. a well *wishful thinking* time to get back to reality.

====================
====================
getting back to reality, and that is approaching companies.

do i ask for help direct help with development? or do i seek a job? or both? or other? am i asking for "funding", what am i asking of them? and were do i want to position myself.

and i do not have a clue... lunch is over, time to get back at things...

 

[Ken]

i know i will need to deal with it soon or later, is patents / copyright, and the like. along with dealing with anyone that has replied to this thread. once those $$$ signs gets involved. man, i hate approaching the subject. just bringing it up, is going to offend someone, and someone else may get really into it, to point of lawsuit or some such. and honestly, not prepared to deal with any of the sort.

when initially creating the thread on TBN for me, was to get some help / feedback, nothing more to it than that, to see what might come of it. as things have further progressed, my thinking has changed, to a point that it is very possible, and more of gaining contacts, and gaining info on who has replied to the thread, to approach later on as things progress. also to help get folks use to the idea, of a different "type" of tractor, and how it might operate in the fields.

================
as much as i thought i was digging a deeper hole for myself a few minutes ago. i think i got a better "business model" to follow. that might work, short and long term. and that is, what many "open source" software, go by, the General public license agreements or the like.

were, it is free to use, for non-profit organizations or like, and freely to distribute the information as long as credit and blah blah blah is noted. but not able to use for commercial use / doings were money would be made, without direct signed authorization by the developer/designer. or how ever it is worded.

Man a lawyer would have a field day with above paragraph.

==============
see if i can restate things... a better way.

*eats lunch* and my train of thought has left me.

i am looking for something,
---that allows, others to help / give feed back / work on the SSTT and/or STB. and still gives credit to those folks and/or companies.
---no one / entity / company and plural forms, can make a profit of the doings, without direct signed consent.

thinking it still keeps me in control of things, to a point, were i can still sign a contract/s or like. and i would be required to give credit. to those that have done work on the project/s. and in doing so, does not imply any sort of "money" being exchanged or implied.

though i am not sure how above might apply to copyrights, and patents. i would imagine, if someone came up with this nitfy little doing, that works, and it was patented, the given person / company. would be listed on the patent. but the entity in control of the patent or like, that may gain a profit, of the patent. would be, who ever, i signed the contract/s with. that basically kicks out the little guy, that did things, in gaining any sort $ of doing from the idea.

with open source software code, you are normally able to make changes or what not, as long as credit is given, and blah blah blah, is kept with the doings.

i think i need to get my mind over the idea, of work, vs idea, vs credit. there is a difference. and because many things can move so quickly with source code itself. and knowledge and ability is there. that the "idea" itself is for most part is mute in point. and it is more about work done, and shown, put into a project, and credit noted. vs the idea itself. when it comes to open source software.

but as good as that last paragraph sounded to me. there is a snag, and that is, an attempt. keep some what control to a given point. to promote my own self. (other words i need to making a living as well).

and this about the time, i wish i lived in the age of "star trek" were a value of X for given work done, is no longer there for everyone. a well *wishful thinking* time to get back to reality.

====================
====================
getting back to reality, and that is approaching companies.

do i ask for help direct help with development? or do i seek a job? or both? or other? am i asking for "funding", what am i asking of them? and were do i want to position myself.

and i do not have a clue... lunch is over, time to get back at things...

Ryan Look at the elec. 100 ton trucks hauling ore out of copper pits in Ariz. and Utah other areas. they have upgraded to 300 ton vehicles one whoppinmg big trucks.
Unless changed recently they were Elec in the wheels. belly deep in mud bottom of pit and able to pull out of pit taking close to 1 hour of dead weight pull uphill.
dump the load and return into the pit. huge grids coils to cool using the motors for breaking action.
ken

 

[PapaPerk]

Ryan Look at the elec. 100 ton trucks hauling ore out of copper pits in Ariz. and Utah other areas. they have upgraded to 300 ton vehicles one whoppinmg big trucks.
Unless changed recently they were Elec in the wheels. belly deep in mud bottom of pit and able to pull out of pit taking close to 1 hour of dead weight pull uphill.
dump the load and return into the pit. huge grids coils to cool using the motors for breaking action.
ken

:thumbsup:

 

[boggen]

not much of an update.

autodesk inventor. finally getting through "restraints" and figured out YA!
but... collision detection..... not looking so good. for what i was hoping for. as far as programming a simulation. when i get over into "autodesk simulation multi physics" program. maybe something there. but not enough time to go through it.

also going to need to pickup "microsoft excel or office" 2003 to 2010 license, in order to do much with inventor. well i should say, keeping track of all the parameters (length, width, height, diameter, etc...) openoffice does not work, due to how autodesk inventor and microsoft excel "talk to each other" to update things parameters.

i have downloaded a few other autodesk app's (auto cad mechanical, simulation CFD, autocad electrical), and i am going to need to go through them, to look at simulation, but at moment it is not looking to promising. as what i was hoping to find, for simple collision detection. that could be used as a constant / variable set parameter. though, that maybe, the newbie of me speaking.

collision detection... *grinds teeth* ggggrrrr....

====================
using autodesk student edition. trying to learn.

4 cylinders. (errr ok modified generic flat cylinders)

hhhmmsss i thought the image was suppose to have a "autodesk student edition" markings on the image....

the 3 different "angle" constraints. are giving me problems. in wanting to set 1 to 2 of them. and only allow freedom of moment so much in one direction, and then setting another constraint to be able to move so far in the other direction.

was actually hoping for "collision detection". to work better and spit out how many degrees and other parameters, when something happened. but... i am not finding/seeing the info.

====================

going through "constraints" videos on youtube, and came across this video.

a bar that fits into the end, of a cylinder, and is used to determined position of the rod of the cylinder. *shrugs* something to remember. vs the gear / toothed bar, from an earlier post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkEvE7SqsMI&feature=related

=====================
i dug some what into "electrical motors" on google. but i need to dig further into how motors are actually made, (windings, center core, etc...) been way to many years, since basic A/C and D/C college class. and in that get back to the fundamentals of electrical motors.

my dad called me last night, and i asked, about, if he had a old multi phase motor, that was burned up at the plant he works at. that i might be able to get and tear apart. hopefully one that is variable speed design. granted no wheel hub motor design. but something possibly.

=====================

i am still hesitant about use of electrical motors.

my last thoughts have been on.....

hyd motors. i can keep feeding them more and more GPM of hyd fluid. and as long as they do not over heat, i can keep on pressing more GPM of hyd fluid through them. if hyd oil pressure gets to high, a pressure relief valve opens up and lets excess pressure to by pass the motor.

other words to above.... i could pickup the transport wheels, put down the tracks for field mode, and pump every last bit of GPM of hyd oil coming from the engine and hyd pump. to just 2 track motors. and gain higher MPH.

if i try and do same thing with electrical motors, by raising AMPs and Volts. at some point sparks are going to happen. and things are going to get burned up (or rather i should say, before sparks begin to fly and cause things to get welded to each other). or less i keep increasing the size of the motor and in that windings can allow for the higher AMPs and volts....(hopefully correct term aka windings) i would like to think a fuse / breaker / resister, would be set in place to keep an electrical motor from destroying itself. but with a fuse / breaker... once a fuse blows / breaker trips, ya gotta get out there and manually replace fuse, or reset breaker. unlike a hyd pressure relief valve that auto resets itself, once pressure is reduced to a given point.