NH Mastergold engine oil

[jimg]

Got a pre-season sales blurb from NH in the mail which contained an interesting writeup about their Mastergold engine oil. Their claim is its better than some unnamed competitors product b/c: 1) it has a higher % of zinc for better wear resistance, 2) gives easier cold starts and 3) has a higher TBN for better suspension of contaminants and resistance to the corrosive effects of acid build up. The figures most interesting to me were zinc and TBN...%age of zinc is somewhere between .170 and .180 (very close to .180) and TBN is 12.0. I did some poking around for TBN and zinc in other oils but didn't find much. Anyone know how the above numbers compare to other 15w-40 oils for diesel engines?

 

[DieselPower]

That's a good TBN rating at 12. I would be interested to see what it's retention rate is over time. There are diesel engine oils on the market that have a TBN of 15+ that have excellent retention levels.

The ZDP actually seems a little high, preferably the ideal max limit should be around .14% by volume. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability. ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942. In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range. In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called Sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests. A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range. However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

The zinc/phosphorus (ZDP,ZDDP,ZnDTP) level is a slipery slope, more is not alway's better in extended use applications.

 

[jimg]

Hi DP

Interesting!!

So its not enough to know TBN then...you'd want to see a graph of TBN to engine run time, wall clock time or both? For instance one engine may run 16hrs every day and another may run only 10hrs/wk. It seems both cases would be interesting since in the first case it would be pushed to suspend particulates. In the later case its more about buffering acid build up. Am I understanding this correctly?

I wonder if CNH engines are designed to require a higher % of zinc? I'm sure the NH engineers worked w/ the petro engineers to come up w/ the formulation. At least it makes sense to me and is very similar to how JD does it.

Also what other oil parameters would be interesting to know? I'm sure there must be more than TBN & zinc. I also suspect NH only touched on those additives which would help sell their product.

Again, I'd really like to know how the MG specs compare to other 15w-40 diesel oils. Is there any place to get that info?

 

[RWEST]

Is there any place to get that info?

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf lists some numbers on pages 3 & 4, although many of those oils have been superseded by the CJ-4 formulation. You could also dig around in the VOA section over at BITOG. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=11&page=1

 

[RickB]

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf lists some numbers on pages 3 & 4, although many of those oils have been superseded by the CJ-4 formulation. You could also dig around in the VOA section over at BITOG. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=11&page=1

New Holland does not market a CJ-4 oil. That spec is not required in off-road diesels (yet), at least not CNH engines.

 

[DieselPower]

Hi DP

Interesting!!

So its not enough to know TBN then...you'd want to see a graph of TBN to engine run time, wall clock time or both? For instance one engine may run 16hrs every day and another may run only 10hrs/wk. It seems both cases would be interesting since in the first case it would be pushed to suspend particulates. In the later case its more about buffering acid build up. Am I understanding this correctly?

I wonder if CNH engines are designed to require a higher % of zinc? I'm sure the NH engineers worked w/ the petro engineers to come up w/ the formulation. At least it makes sense to me and is very similar to how JD does it.

Also what other oil parameters would be interesting to know? I'm sure there must be more than TBN & zinc. I also suspect NH only touched on those additives which would help sell their product.

Again, I'd really like to know how the MG specs compare to other 15w-40 diesel oils. Is there any place to get that info?

Some diesel engine oils start out with a high TBN which drops off quickly and then stabilizes while others maintain a high TBN with a gradual drop while in service. It really depends on the type of additive package as to how effective it is in maintaining a good TBN throughout the oils life. Two things that can drastically effect the TBN are the engines condition, specifically how efficient it burns and how much combustion byproducts it dumps into the oil and the type of fuel you are using. ULSD will have less effect on TBN than say LSD and regular high sulfur diesel being the worst. The sulfur content of the fuel plays a large role since sulfur and sulfur byproducts combine with moisture and oxygen in the oil to produce sulfuric acid compounds. The alkalinity of the oil (the TBN) is a measure of how much reserve alkalinity is left to neutralize acids.

The best way to judge a engine oils TBN retention is on a piece of stationary equipment. It's a ideal application for testing additive package performance like this. Stationary equipment operates pretty much at one constant speed, 24 hours a day at a constant load so it contaminates the oil at a fairly steady rate. When TBN of different oils is tested at regular intervals over the oils service life there can be a rather drastic difference in one oils ability to maintain a good TBN while the other quickly falls off below safe levels.

In all honesty the best way to judge any oil (engine, gear, hydraulic, etc...) is to ask the manufacturer to provide you with some UOA's from real customers using their product in real life applications.

 

[jimg]

This is really interesting. If I were to test my engine oil would TBN be part of the analysis? That way I could get some idea of how it was behaving in my application. BTW is TBN aka pH or related to pH in some way?

 

[fieldserviceengineer]

Some years ago, Caterpillar introduced their own engine oil formulations. Mobile was the refiner/blender. The most potent version of that oil had a TBN around 14. Caterpillar learned rather quickly that high TBN while it is good for offsetting the acid formation that came from high sulfur content diesel fuel that it came at cost somewhere else. That "cost" was the high ash content of the oil causing piston ring sticking and subsequent oil consumption issues. This was especially a problem for the Cat 3208 used in some White tractors and on highway trucks of the time.

The ash content of the oil is still an issue. Higher levels of ZDDP ( zinc dialkyldithiophophate) has the same problem, ash content. With most fuel available now in North America being only ULSD, the need for high TBN is reduced. Fortunately your those who do not have to use exhaust aftertreatment on their engines, you can still use CI-4 engine oil, if it is still available from your lubricant distributor. Many major oil brands still offer CI-4 oil. If you are using CJ-4 engine oil, it actually is not as good as the former rating. CJ-4 was introduced for use in 2007 emissions compliant on-highway and some off highway engines. CJ-4 has a lower TBN value as the zinc in it can foul the catalyst muffler and diesel particulate trap. Fouling of those aftertreatment devices can be overcome by removing them and having them cleaned. If you do not have those concerns, stay with CI-4 for as long as you can. I work with some very large on-highway fleet customers who strive to achieve long interval oil and filter change life. Several have found that they have had to revert back to CI-4 oil even though they are operating engines that the recommended oil is CJ-4 to achieve longer service intervals. What is your goal in a lubricant? If you are concerned about achieving standard CNH recommended service intervals, CJ-4 lubricants will suffice. If you are thinking that you want to extend oil life, higher TBN is needed. As you burn more fuel producing combustion by-product acids, you need more TBN additive to offset the effects of these acids. While fuel is now ULSD in North America, sulfurous and sulfuric acids are minimal. However, 78% of the air your engine breathes is nitrogen. Nitric and nitrous acids are the results of combustion, so you still very much need adequate TBN. Also, some lubricants may have increased TBN but may not have sufficient other additives to compliment the TBN when it comes to extending service life of the oil and filters. There is at least one filter company that offers a lube filter with TBN additive. While it may extend the life of the oil TBN value, the other additives such as dispersant and detergents are at or near the end of their life span. TBN alone is not a good judge of oil capability but it is important.

 

[DieselPower]

Well said Gary. As far as ash content goes there are low ash engine oils that still have high TBN numbers. Additive chemistery has come a long way in the past few years. Triboligist have quite a arsenal to chose from in their additive toolbox these day's, some additives costing quite a bit more than others.

jimg - Check with the analysis lab to be sure. Some labs include the TBN test as a regular test in engine oils while other labs have a additional fee for it. If your getting the UOA's done for free by your lubricants supplier they usually include a TBN test for engine oils or a TAN test for other oils.

 

[jimg]

LOL...when I started this thread I thought I might have a hope of understanding enough about oils to make a good informed decision. I see I was terribly wrong. Thanx for all the very informative infos guys. It did help but right now I'm in info overload. I just need to think about what was said and try to understand it. It seems a rather broad topic that's too much to grasp in a short time.