No hydraulics... GAH!!!

[Soundguy]

yep.. transtune disolved the water.. no frozen clump at the bottom of the sump.. it's now solvated into an azeotrope and with the oil in soloution.. not suspension or emulsion. if you run it enough and get it warmed and use it it WILL flash off that water...

 

[Marveltone]

It's your tractor Joe, but you need to change that oil at the first warm-up you can.....water/hyd oil does lots of damage you cannot see internally

If is was mine I would change it now (when thawed), then do a thorough cleaning and flushing again in the spring when you can do it right

yep.. transtune disolved the water.. no frozen clump at the bottom of the sump.. it's now solvated into an azeotrope and with the oil in soloution.. not suspension or emulsion. if you run it enough and get it warmed and use it it WILL flash off that water...

It seems either we have opposing viewpoints or I'm missing something. If the water and hydraulic fluids are turned into an azeotrope, as I understand it (barely), the components of the solution cannot be separated by simple distillation. So can the water really be boiled off, or will it just remain as is until everything is drained off and changed? AND... If it remains suspended, can it do any further damage to the internal components?

I'm not trying to start an argument between any of you guys. I'm just a window builder, not a chemist, so this is a bit above and beyond my skill-set. I just really want to know.

Joe

 

[Soundguy]

read up on azeotropes.

I think you are misunderstanding the distilation issue.

they can't be seperated.. they BOTH boil off at the same proportion as their constituants. ie.. constant boiling point.

water / alcohol will be a positive azeotrope. the material will actually boil at a LOWER temperature than it's 2 constituants. IE.. it will boil at a lower point than the alcohol.. I think 78.2 would be the min for that alcohol / water azeotrope.. with alc being higher.. and water MUCH higher.

thus that water/alcohol azeotrop WILL boil off.. and will boil off easier. the alcohol won't boil off and leave the water, due to it being an azeotrop that boils off the constituants in proportion.. etc.

I would not be inclined to run a heavilly contaminated mix with a ton of alcohol, and try to boil it off.

I mean.. if the oil looks like milk.. it needs to be changed. if it's a nice amber oil with a lil cloudiness.. I'd dose it and go.

ps.. I'm not that kind of an engineer... but I have stayed in a holiday in express before..

 

[Marveltone]

read up on azeotropes.

I think you are misunderstanding the distilation issue.

I misunderstand plenty!:confused2:

they can't be seperated.. they BOTH boil off at the same proportion as their constituants. ie.. constant boiling point.

water / alcohol will be a positive azeotrope. the material will actually boil at a LOWER temperature than it's 2 constituants. IE.. it will boil at a lower point than the alcohol.. I think 78.2 would be the min for that alcohol / water azeotrope.. with alc being higher.. and water MUCH higher.

thus that water/alcohol azeotrop WILL boil off.. and will boil off easier. the alcohol won't boil off and leave the water, due to it being an azeotrop that boils off the constituants in proportion.. etc.

I would not be inclined to run a heavilly contaminated mix with a ton of alcohol, and try to boil it off.

I mean.. if the oil looks like milk.. it needs to be changed. if it's a nice amber oil with a lil cloudiness.. I'd dose it and go.

ps.. I'm not that kind of an engineer... but I have stayed in a holiday in express before..

Thanks for the explanation. No milky looking fluid at all. Looks pretty much like honey.

Joe

 

[wdchyd]

yep.. transtune disolved the water.. no frozen clump at the bottom of the sump.. it's now solvated into an azeotrope and with the oil in soloution.. not suspension or emulsion. if you run it enough and get it warmed and use it it WILL flash off that water...

Well Hey, That's a new one on me.....I see what you're saying, I just have a difficulty seeing how a closed reservoir can flash off water that easy...

seems like a kettle with a lid on it and a small breather........if the reservoir was wide open to the atmosphere then maybe in FL, but in MN during winter..??.......but then again I ain't no engineer, just a grease monkey...:confused2:

 

[Soundguy]

Well Hey, That's a new one on me.....I see what you're saying, I just have a difficulty seeing how a closed reservoir can flash off water that easy...

seems like a kettle with a lid on it and a small breather........if the reservoir was wide open to the atmosphere then maybe in FL, but in MN during winter..??.......but then again I ain't no engineer, just a grease monkey...:confused2:

simple logic. it ain't a closed sump if it is getting condensation moisture in there ( or any other moisture inthere ).

it's either open or closed... sounds open..

 

[Soundguy]

that sounds like the amber with a hair of cloud.. IE.. I'd dose it and put it thru the paces...sumps that heat up and are vented to atmosphere are gonna get condensation... working them up to temp to flash off the moisture is a common thing.

I misunderstand plenty!:confused2:

Thanks for the explanation. No milky looking fluid at all. Looks pretty much like honey.

Joe

 

[wdchyd]

simple logic. it ain't a closed sump if it is getting condensation moisture in there ( or any other moisture inthere ).

it's either open or closed... sounds open..

I guess so, but by the time water is discovered it's been there for some time and it may have been coming in through a shifter boot or cover gasket, I just can't see putting in some other odd chemicals to hope and pray it will work vs just changing the oil that needs it anyway

is this seafoam (alcohol stuff) compatible with the hyd seals, hoses and gaskets..??....I would guess it's not for long term usuage....then it gets expensive to start changing hyd hoses and cyl seals prematurely if left in..??

(Hmmmm, Ponder, could be good for repair businesses.......$$$$$).....OK, shutting up now....:ashamed:

 

[Soundguy]

I guess so, but by the time water is discovered it's been there for some time and it may have been coming in through a shifter boot or cover gasket, :

there goes your closed sump theory. Shifter boots can be a source.. so can toplink draft control rods.. doubtfull it is a gasket.. but top cover 3pt arms may be an entry as well. if air can get in.. moisture can get in.. when air cools and the dew point is reached.. you will get condensation. Oil covered surfaces inside a sump are good water collectors. most oils have hygroscopic tendencies, at least for letting water condense.. which it then pools at the lowest point of the sump.. if it is not warmed enough to evap / flash off completely.. it stays there under that layer of oil.

I just can't see putting in some other odd chemicals to hope and pray it will work vs just changing the oil that needs it anyway:

Odd chemicals? praying? This is science.. the alcohol is any more odd than the oil that's in there. And no praying involved. google azeotrope... Alcohol is a polar solvent... water is polar.. alcohol DISOLVES water. Solvated water is carried in soloution, not suspension or emulsion.. and is thus easier to deal with.

is this seafoam (alcohol stuff) compatible with the hyd seals, hoses and gaskets..??....I would guess it's not for long term usuage....then it gets expensive to start changing hyd hoses and cyl seals prematurely if left in..??

transtune seafoam is perfectly fine to add to transmission and hyd systems. says so on the can or you can call them like I did if you want to read it AND hear it. And yes.. you can run it in there as a preventative. kinda like adding 'dry gas' 'HEET' or other similar compounds to gas to remove water back before we had ethanol in the gas like we do now. And no.. it won't hurt the hoses or seals.. besides.. you aren't running straingt trans tune.. you are running a very diluted mix of transtune to ALOT of oil... and it flashes off with the water anyway.. or can be used as a pretreat / pre flush to grab liquid water setting in hard to drain sumps..

(Hmmmm, Ponder, could be good for repair businesses.......$$$$$).....OK, shutting up now....:ashamed:

what's good for the repair business is doing nothing.

getting the water out is doing something. drain and waste some 98% good oil each time you get a lil water in it and don't feel like running it.. or apply some science.

this deffinately falls under a work smarter not harder topic.

we've come along way since man harness fire and chipped a boulder round to make a wheel.

let's not stall in the road and slide back down the hill just yet.

 

[wdchyd]

Sorry if you think changing hyd oil is stalling in the road and sliding back down the hill.....no where do I advocate doing nothing.....my original suggestion was to change the oil to remove water and contaminates from the damage that can or may already happened from water being left in the sump as a form of rust from the water

I'm just not as smart as you....We'll leave it at that and Thanx for edumacating me....

Time for me to get back to work anyways and get something accomplished.....:thumbsup: