Over Running Couplers

[AlanB]

SG said "No need to be rude to have a simple conversation."

AB said I did not feel I was being rude, you seem to question every response I make as though it is untrue, so I offered to provide further verification and authentication so that I do not appear to be one of those guys that types away on the computer without actually doing what I am referring too.

AB originally said <font color="blue">( Go find New Holland Assit bulletin #443 that says class II boomers (which when I called and spoke with Tech services NH also applied to my 1925) It was referenced here on TBN on the NH forums as I said
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php/.../353673/ )</font>

SG replied with "That bulletin, taken with the rest of the posts in that section show that the orc is necescary.. due to a DEFECT .. and should not be considdered regular operation. The ORC was a bandaid around the real problem.. which was probably a bearing seized on the tranny countershaft which drove the pot and in that case.. allowed the pto to backfeed the tractor drive train. In normal situations ( correctly functioning machine ).. that wouldn't happen. I believe the answer came down that the unit had been run low on oil allowing either the bearing or aft gear to sieze to the shaft.
This proves nothing.. except NH wanted to bandaid a problem rather than fix it.. whether it is a manufacturing/design problem.. or a user defect doesn't affect the situation any."

AB said I think you should re- read the post, and the NH assist bulletin. If it was for a "failure" then they would just do it on that machine, not take the time to do an assist bulletin and reccomend it across the board. Why would they reccomend to do it all on class II boomers?


SG said "He was running it with no slip clutch and it had a hardened bolt for the shear bolt ( previous owner ). He was told by the previous owner, when he bought the mower and the tractor, that the ORC WAS designed to slip and protect the mower.. obviously it didnt... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif the ORC didn't ratched forwad, and instead put a half inch twist in the spline.. and stalled the tractor as the mower stopped on a huge shock load to the drivetrain."

AB said Would you pull apart his ORC and see what kind of condition it is in internally? Or would you send it too me so that I could? I would be willing to cover shipping costs.

I do not know, but I would be willing to bet, that it is siezed inside.


I know this is not edited as nicely as I would like, but I am trying to figure out the color / instant markup thing and not being too sucsessful

 

[normde2001]

AlanB, it would sure be a lot easier to read and understand your posts if you would put your quotes in quotation marks. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[AlanB]

Sorry. Let me figure it out.

 

[To20Chris]

I grease it every couple of months, and it usually squirts out all over, so I think it's getting in there pretty good. Also, it's 25yrs old and still works fine, so I'm betting it gets greased pretty effectively. I'm thinking there is something peculiar about the particular deisgn / batch / whatever ORC you were using. As I mentioned before, I've seen all sorts of common items that had been perfected years ago and are now outsourced - and now they no longer work at all. I buy lots of stuff at TSC too, but it isn''t because of the high quality! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif A couple of years ago I went to get finnishing brads at Home Depot - there were heads on most of the nails (not always centered though), but the "pointy" end was usually a bigger blob than the head! Every box in every size was the same junk. That incident with the PHD digger was a bit hard on the old ORC, but I'm betting if I went and got another that it wouldn't last 25yrs!

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I did not feel I was being rude, you seem to question every response I make as though it is untrue )</font>

Sorry... not intended to make you feel that way. I'm just as interested in getting to the bottom of this as you.. no matter whatt the outcome... I'm just one of those skeptical/questioning..hands on engineer people. I look at everything with that 'squinty' eye look until I can directly see what is going on.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If it was for a "failure" then they would just do it on that machine, not take the time to do an assist bulletin and reccomend it across the board. Why would they reccomend to do it all on class II boomers? )</font>

Though I have no evidence to support this.. My guess would be a CYA type maneuver. Given that this defect may show up as a common occourance.. even if it is user fault.. the failure is probably very re-creatable.. in that it fails often as a result of the low oil. For them it looks like a liability shield. Recomending an external ORC makes so that if thier internals fail.. there is still a safety margin on the equipment.

Course this is all speculation.. and I doubt NH would fess up either way..

I've got an email out to the eng. dept at speeco right now.. and am awaiting a reply. I've cc'ed them the basics of our group discussion, and when I get a reply.. I'll post it here.

Soundguy

 

[rambler]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Sorry. Let me figure it out. )</font>

Alan, I had a hard time figuring out the whole need for an over running coupler back in the NH form when that was a new subject. I stayed out of the conversation as I had nothing to offer, but it made no sense at all to me. It sure sounded like the tractor broke, and the cheapest thing for the company/dealer to do was use an orc. Did not, and still does not, make sense to me. But I just can't get a good handle on what the deal is with that. Shook my head on that whole thread.


May I ask what size post hole digger you are using? I have used a 12" in my clay soils - I have rocks too. Worked fine with my b-i-l's 15 hp compact. Really, they don't draw all that much raw power. I can't imagine stressing an ORC with a post hole digger.

On the other hand, I used my 55hp tractor with a cheap ORC from bankrupt Quality chain. I was running a 9' mower condioner. (To make this story longer, my tractor had live pto, but the collar pto yoke would not fit, so had to use the OCR just as a way to couple the moco to the tractor. Normally I use an 85 hp tractor on the moco, 50 hp is very light weight & I had to drive slow.)

So anyhow, a good share of the hp was put into that ORC. It did not slip, not ever. This was several hours of cutting time, no breaks. Full power, full throttle. I actually wore the roll pin out, but it got my alfalfa cut when I needed it.

Anyhow, normal ORC's don't slip in the opposite direction. Not the one's I've ever seen. Mine took 50 hp on a difficult load, no problem, no slippage.

Now, it isn't that I don't believe you. You are just bringing up some points that are difficult to comprehend. I've worked on this farm for 35+ years, do my own mechanical work on tractors, planter, combines. I've run into all kinds of weird deals, & I'm certainly open to things working differently than I would expect them to -heck that happens all the time! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I've never ever heard of an OCR 'slipping' in the forward direction, and have not experienced it myself under some trying conditions.

I find your experience extraordinary, & puzzling.

I hope you don't take offense at my posting. You just have some experiences that are outside what I have experienced.

--->Paul

 

[AlanB]

No offense taken

We use a 12" auger in clay / rocky soil, but it was stopping well short of doing any real "digging"

As to the need of the ORC on the boomers, CYA or whatever for NH, at some point, I figure if they reccomend it, I ought to do it. I am making the assumption, maybe incorrectly, that they took the time for the driveline engineer to look at it, evaluate the problem, come up with an answer, and put it out as an assist bulletin. I could be wrong, but I doubt they do that lightly.

I need to go out now and hook up the PHD and the quick connect ORC and see what that does. Maybe I got 2 "bad" ones out of the same batch???? But honestly, from closely looking at their guts trying to figure out what was happening, it does not take that much for the ones I have seen to slip.

I do not know what a Mower conditioner is, my thoughts revolve around the BH that I run.
I do not think a bush hog, of any size really, is a heavy torque load, my thoughts are that a BH is acting like a huge flywheel back there and you are providing enough drive to keep it spinning, the High torque loads it experiences are overcome by it's flywheel effect.

I am probably coming across wrong, I do not mind being questioned, but it just seems to come back to me, NO, that could not happen.

Sooo, turning it around. Lets say they never slip, they are a positive lock.

Why would you need a QD if you never need take it off?

(short driveline on Tiller noted exception)

 

[Soundguy]

My take is that the pin on ones are 30 bucks less than the qd ones.. that seems like two different market targets... Aside from the ease of removal as well.

Some of us have a pto housing that is of a wrong size to accept the push button or collar lock models.. and the roll pin is the only way to go.. ( for instance.. on my old ford.. etc )

Soundguy

 

[AlanB]

I guess I am totally missing my target.

My point is, most all of us (there are always exceptions) would buy the cheaper pin on version, if it worked in all circumstances, and leave it in place.

I know that is what I intended.

I am attempting to draw an inference to the fact if they go through great pains and added expense and retooling and different molds for the casting etc, there is a benefit too it.

Maybe not, maybe folks just want to be able to take it off easy.

Interested to hear what speeco says.

Also thought about grabbing my QD one and taking it apart to see what it looks like.

Also thought that I would go grab one that I say slips, put it in a vice with a torque wrench and see what it takes to break it loose, I think I can do it with a standard ft. Lb wrench, maybe not, but I would be interested.

Rambler, next time you are by your tractor, would you do me the favor of reaching down and spinning your ORC in the over run direction and verifying that you can spin it with your hand please? Thanks.

 

[woodlot]

Sorry to chime in as I usually do not post. Alan has said quite a few times to grease the ORC good, not just through the zerk. I just got to thinking that too much grease may lead to a problem. If excess grease was present ABOVE the "clutch dogs" it may prevent them from fully engaging and lead to a slipping problem. Just A thought.