POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns?

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   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #21  
LMTC said:
For those of you who claim folks should go through the same training/certification, etc. as police officers...do you KNOW what that is? I used to shoot competitively (handgun) and while I was good, I was nowhere near being ranked...and I was a better marksman than 90% of the LEOs who I ever shot with or against. Most LEOs shoot the minimum required rounds every year, and many fail to qualify without repeating the courses/tests. This is not a slam at LEOs in any way, but the fact is many never fire their weapon other than at annual or semi-annual qualification.

Someone is worried their child will get caught in a cross fire between a crazy person and an armed teacher? Would it be better if it was just the crazy person shooting at the kids with no armed teacher shooting back?


There is a lot more to using a gun in self defense than hitting the intended target; the first decision is whether the situation requires a weapon in the first place.

If memory serves me, a recent thread here at TBN touched on how trained professionals felt after killing someone.
How would YOU feel if you realised after the fact that maybe you shouldn't have fired that shot?

Bird, and some others here, know more about this than I do; but the first step in diffusing a situation is often judiciously not brandishing a weapon.
Do YOU know when the proper time is to cross that line? I sure don't, yet would have no problem getting a carry permit if I so desired.

(PS; Could you shoot a moving grouse out of the air with a .22 pistol? Would that qualify you to brandish a weapon against an alleged attacker?)
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #22  
Do YOU know when the proper time is to cross that line? I sure don't, yet would have no problem getting a carry permit if I so desired.

(PS; Could you shoot a moving grouse out of the air with a .22 pistol? Would that qualify you to brandish a weapon against an alleged attacker?)

There are situations in which you will KNOW when lethal force is justified. Any other time, if there is doubt, you don't. You don't pull a gun to threaten or bluff.

Being able to hit a flying grouse of course in no way "qualifies" you to brandish (not sure what that means?) a weapon but it would certainly instill confidence in knowing where that shot is going to hit when you have to pull the trigger.

The whole idea that someone has to meet "qualifications" is the slippery slope of gun control, i.e., infringement. Who gets to decide who is qualified and who is not? What part of "...shall not be infringed" do we not get?
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #23  
IslandTractor said:
This country amazes me. Has anyone considered the downside of introducing guns? Nah, we just wanna make sure there is a slight chance that some brave teacher will stop another Columbine/VTech. Who bothers to consider the far greater likelihood that 1) a student will get the gun and use it, 2) the teacher will be the one who flips out and uses it against the students or other teachers, 3) the bad guys won't adapt their strategy.

I am not one who follows these gun debates but isn't there already pretty good evidence that having a gun in your house is actually correlated with a higher rather than lower likelihood of being killed by a gun? Now we want to inflict that bizarre behavior on our schools too?

I don't own a gun but I have nothing at all against guns used for hunting, practice etc. I think for personal protection in a rural environment they make sense too. Crowding people and guns together however tends to lead to tradgic results too often so I certainly don't like the idea of guns in schools.


There's a lot more to guns then target practice. And, I'd wager a city or suburban homeowner would be more likely to need self protection then us country guys...
I voted YES...but in colleges, I wouldn't limit carrying a gun just to the teachers.

However, there would be some requirements the CCW folks would have to adhere to...such as they're not to go looking for the bad guy...they're to stay where they are and defend themselves at their current location.

Other requirements too...if you want to read 'em, just do a search on my posts.
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #24  
You would be astounded how many parents go totally beserk if they feel the teacher has even looked at their precious little one in a way they don't approve of. Last year, some of my kids told me that a boy in my class had used some inappropriate language on the playground. He denied it. There were several witnesses from the room next door. I had them come over. Their stories differed and I couldn't use class time to sort it all out, so I asked them all to please go write their own accounts of what happened, and just use the first letter of the "bad" words and return them to me. Shortly after school was over, I got a call from a woman who was yelling and screaming about the way I had traumatized her son. She said I was abusing her child by asking him to write bad language, that I was a lazy inept teacher because it was my job to simply know what happened out on the playground and that I was using her son as a pawn to do my work for me. The next morning the father came to my room early before school and acted much the same way. He accused me of jeopardizing his son's safety in that if the boy "told' on others, he could be ostrasized, teased, and bullied, just as the father had when he was in school. He said in no uncertain terms that his children would never be allowed to tell on others and would not be writing or telling accounts of what happened to anyone. They then went to the school superintendent and demanded that a big meeting be set up with me, the boy, his parents, the principal, and the superintendent, at which I would cite a long apology to the boy for humiliating him. My principal was out on medical leave and some retired lunatic was filling in. When this sub administrator told me this, I told her with a huge smile that i would be happy to go to the union and have her sent quickly back into retirement.

Now believe it or not, these kind of things are common occurences at schools. I have several incidents a year that are just as bizarre. I can guarantee you that any such requirement would have a kazillion parents going ballistic. And to be fair, think about a six year old who gets in trouble and when talking to the teacher about her behavior, starts thinking about the fact that the teacher has a gun. I am sort of an old style teacher, I am strict and expect good behavior and hard work. My test scores are far higher than others in similar classrooms and socioeconomic neighborhoods. Nevertheless, it has taken me years to learn how to walk a very fine line wherein children know that I don't tolerate misbehavior and at the very same time they feel secure and unthreatned by me. It is not easy to demand that a rowdy, obnoxious, sometimes cruel boy settle down and behave, and yet be doing that task right in front of very sensitive other children who are cooperative, without making this second group of kids feel frightned by my demeanor. Keeping 34 nine and ten year olds focused, on task, and above all interested in learning, every moment, all day long, is not at all an easy task.

Now here's another rub. Everybody and his brother have an idea of what teachers should do and be. I get better test scores than average. A lot of people want us to be evaluated and have pay based on our scores. You have no idea how bad the politics already are of who gets what kids, of how they are placed in this or that teacher's class. Parents always have their favorites. It would be so easy for a principal to just put all the bad kids in the class of a teacher he/she didn't like and set that teacher up for bad test results. Further, no matter what anyone says, on a broad scope, the socioeconomic level of a family has a direct correlation with performance. When I was a young teacher, I taught in a very rich county. As an inexperienced teacher, my students made astronomical scores, despite my inexperience. While now, my scores are outstanding for my area, they are nowhere near those I got as a beginner. Now, all this being said, about 10 years ago, there was a big push for toothbrushing at school, because it wasn't happening at home. Now, they tell us, kids will be tested in physical conditioning and it will count on the schools' test scores. I cannot control what kids eat at home; I can't even control what the parents send to school for them to eat. I can take them to P.E., but to be physically fit, the parents need to feed them properly, make sure they sleep properly and get other exercise. NCLB says that by 2014, if I have a child in my room with brain injury and an IQ of 50, I still have to have that child on grade level in Math and Reading; otherwise I am a failure. Liberals in the government want me to become the kid's parent. Conservatives in the government want me to be God. I just can't do either one.

My daughter is adopted from China. We were members of Families with Children from China, a great organization. Unfortunately, our local and area chapters are run by ultra-liberal idiots who feel that we should be endlessly taking our daughters to therapists to deal with the fact that they are adopted. This is a real issue, and I have held my child and cried with her many nights when she wondered why the communist government made it such that her mother had to give her up. Nevertheless, I refuse to raise my daughter to be a victim. She has been raised to know that eyerybody has difficulties in life, and that you can choose to be a victim, or...a victor. We have chosen the latter. So what has all this to do with school? We have a very long Social Studies curriculum at 4th grade. Near the very end, is mentioned the Chinese Exclusion Act which at one time excluded Chinese immigrants. These Families with Children from China leaders got on this big soapbox demanding that all 4th grade teachers reach that part of the curriculum and teach it in depth or face a big letter writing campaign to all kind of authorities as well as bring lawsuits for neglecting to teach all students how the Chinese had been discriminated against. Now I do teach students in depth about the sins this nation had in slavery treatment of Native Americans, but in the entire scope of history, the Chinese Exclusion Act is a tiny aspect. Nevertheless, every special interest in existence wants to tell me what my job should entail and how I should do that job. Earlier this year, we got several long letters of complaint that nothing at all was included in our CA history texts about East Indian Sikhs. Well, there is virtually no involvement by East Indian Sikhs in the overall history of California.

Now someone wants to instruct me to keep a gun on myself while I teach little children. Well, join the club. You and everybody else wants to tell me what to do and how to do it. As I said before, I am neither pro-gun nor anti-gun. But guess what, my attitude towards everybody who wants to tell me how and what to do in my job is this, "I am a professional teacher and I am d***ed good at what I do. Virtually nobody could do the job I do. Most people don't have the slightest clue of how hard it is or what it entails. I know what I am doing, am now going off to do my job, and I am going to go do it the right way, my way. If you don't like it, Oh well..."
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #25  
Wow! Tom, slow down. Teaching seems to really stress you out. Are you sure you should continue in this line of work? I was all in favor of letting teachers carry a firearm before, but after reading your post, I not sure I would want someone that is as stressed as you anywhere near a firearm.

All that was being asked here is "Should teachers be allow to carry a firearm." If you choose not to, then don't carry one.
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #26  
Bob, I have no problem with teachers being allowed to carry if they want to. I also agree with the other poster that any teacher that does want to carry a weapon should have a better training program they need to attend then what most residents have to. They should be trained by the same people that train the police and other protectors. Just having a gun isn't enough, they need to know how to react to different situations. The last thing anyone wants is some teacher getting carried away and start shooting at someone and killing a bunch of students because the teacher panicked during the commotion.

We trust teachers to teach our kids but you constantly see on the news about some teacher who abuses that trust to take advantage of kids. Teachers need to pass a tougher requirement to be allowed to protect our kids. In the end if each school only had a few properly trained teachers with permission to carry, that would be better then what it is now.

For me to be able to carry concealed I had to take a short class on pistols, pass the background check and give the county some money and pictures and a finger print. There is not a lot of training involved other then being told the basics. This was around 10 years ago so maybe New York has changed things but it was a lot easier then I thought it was going to be.
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #27  
"I am not one who follows these gun debates but isn't there already pretty good evidence that having a gun in your house is actually correlated with a higher rather than lower likelihood of being killed by a gun? Now we want to inflict that bizarre behavior on our schools too? "

That statistic has been bandied about for years. It's been discounted now, if I recall correctly.
And, why would you call having a gun in the home bizarre behavior? There is nothing bizarre about keeping a gun in the home. Tens of millions of Americans do just that. You're safer with a gun in the home then being going in the hospital (it's about a 3:1 ratio).

Yes, I think teachers should be armed...the ones that are willing to take on that responsibility. I know not all would be, but I'd guess there would be a considerable number that would carry when allowed. Their job would be to stay in a class room and protect their students...not go looking for a killer.
The events at Columbine, VA Tech and others have pretty much disproved the effectiveness of "Gun Free Zones"...they're nothing more then Victim Zones.

I can see this thread's going to go hot and heavy...
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #28  
DCS: I don't see Tom_H as a teacher on the edge. He is a person that still cares about his job, and is frustrated by the those with special interests that make his job harder. I'm sure he could easily imagine, after all these other non-teaching duties (?toothbrushing?) are piled on him, that the next step could easily be forcing him to add "armed security guard" to his job description. He described many aspects of his job that are beyond his control, and explained those things in a calm manner.

I would vote "yes" for letting those that want to carry to do so, but would not want all teachers to be "trained" and then be required to be armed.
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns?
  • Thread Starter
#29  
DocHeb said:
DCS: I don't see Tom_H as a teacher on the edge. He is a person that still cares about his job, and is frustrated by the those with special interests that make his job harder. I'm sure he could easily imagine, after all these other non-teaching duties (?toothbrushing?) are forced on him, that the next step would be adding armed security guard to his job description. He described many aspects of his job that are beyond his control, and explained those things in a calm manner.
Chris, I agree with your assessment. I hear stories like Tom related at the dinner table when talking to my wife. There is no doubt that most parents don't care, that many parents believe their children are infallable and always relate the story of events accurately. On the other side are the lunatic teachers who believe that using a red pen hurts the student's self esteme and that "grades" only server to discourage students.

The poll asked by the TV newscast was flawed in that it allowed too much to be interpreted. But I think many folks here suggest that there can be a sensible approach. A few teachers scattered around campus, who choose to qualify and carry concealed could do a lot of good to imporove security, but the poll didn't ask that. The poll simplistically asked if teachers should be armed. I'd suggest that we are smarter than the TV news and we can rationally extrapolate that only a small % of teachers would ever choose to arm themselves if they were allowed, based on the small % of citizen who legally do the same. I'd also suggest that based on citizens with CCW permits and the fact that they are proven to be responsible, it would be reasonable to presume that teachers would be resonsible. And safety would be increased on campus. JMO
 
   / POLL: Should Teachers Be Armed with Guns? #30  
My wife is a kindergarten teacher, I don't think you could ever get her to carry a gun, she just isn't the type. Would I believe she could use good judgement with it yes, do I think they will have problems like in some city schools not to far from here, no I don't. Does she like the way kids are being raised and the parents holier then thou attitude, not!!!! I have seen enough from being in and around some of the children that are being raised and I think that for the right to lifers they need a reality check! Some of the parents don't have the intellegence of the children they are raising which is causing many of the problems in the schools because they are not taught at home the basics of respect for others or the ability to learn the basics of a good productive life. After all we'd better give our children some of the things we didn't have while growing up, but better yet let's give them everything they ask for and not expect anything in return! At least thats a start, but for some that come up thru life they will always have troubles but if they can be helped at a younger age and allowed to be seperated instead of main streaming the world might not be so generic and be able to look at an individual problem that might only be diet or environment and change it.

I've seen good families (so to speak) raise bad kids as well as seen poor families that have raised great kids. The largest problem that I have is one one label for all!! We are not all the same and never will be. The government wants to try and simplify everything so they can have an easier job and it can't be done. To grade teachers is not easy, it would take at least one group of kids to reach working age and to see what the kids thought at the point in their lives they are loose in the society that they are living in and see how they are handling it.
 
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