possible well pump problems?

[merrickvilleguy]

Just a note: apparently with geothermals (this is my first) it is normal for them to run long term, so should mean the pumps running a long time at a go?

If the pressure tank was shot shouldn't I be seeing short cycling? When I emptied the water from the tank with the pump off, shouldn't the air pressure in the bladder be low? I agree that a larger tank will help the pressure and delay cycling when the geothermal isn't running (which is a good thing) but, if the geothermal is running, the well pump will be running anyways as it uses a ton of water?

 

[milkman636]

If your well pump runs continuosly whenever the geothermal is on you have an undersized water supply. That would explain why you are getting down to 20 psi. You should be able to maintain normal operating pressures with miultiple fixtures open and your heat pump going full tilt. Your well, pump, or supply line to the tank may also be undersized in addition to the small tank. Possibly all three.

You should get some proffesional help in sizing your water supply system to satisfy the entire house and heat pump demand. It sounds to me like a geothermal installer that didn't do his homework. Is this your first winter in the house?

 

[milkman636]

I would add as much tank capacity as I could.

For example only: If your heat pump is using 5 gpm and runing for 10 minute heating cycles. Having 50 gallons of drawdown would mean the well pump would only cycle on at the end of the heating cycle to replenish the water used by the heat pump.

This is only an illustration to demostrate how bigger tanks will help your situation. This is not a specific sizing recommendation.

If you add larger tanks and still can't maintain pressure the problem will be outside of the house. That is why I recommend getting someone knowledgeable to evaluate the whole setup. It could be money well spent toward getting everything right the first time.

 

[kidstrustfund]

You are correct. If you had a bad bladder tank the pump will short cycle. To reply to a previous port. Their are different degrees of bad foot valves. What I was leaning towards is a foot valve that had a restriction in it. A bad foot valve to a different degree will let water back down the well. Same bad valve but a different problem. I agree that damage could have happened to the pump by it running the well dry, especially when a pump runs for an extended period of time. I am liking that call. I would think you then might have a bad well or restricted points because the well is not delivering enough water to satisfy the pump. But if things are close with the gpm's the well will deliver as compared with the gpm's the pump draws. I would try a pump replacement or air rating the well before you drill a new well. I always try to fix the easy/ cheep stuff first. Before you condemn the pump or wel,l look for restrictions ( they could be anywhere from the well point to the main house valve). A pump repair man/ well driller will not spend a lot of time messing around with clearing restrictions because of the time vs. money situation. The call back rate from messing around with existing well/ pump systems are high. He could charge you 100s of dollars and have a call back a few weeks later which would piss you off. Any way you look at this the possibility of this being a PITA is very high, especially for a beginner. Tom

 

[kidstrustfund]

To size your gpm requirements add 5 gpm's for your house if it is a modest residential house plus the requirements for the heat pump. I have run as low as 3 gpm's for a residential unit. That will barley get you by but I have run systems on that . Tom

 

[merrickvilleguy]

The big thing here is that I have steady pressure (in the 20's) and steady gpm (did a 40 gallon test in 7 1/2 mins), since there isn't any mud in the water, there isn't any cavitation or bubbles in the supply, I am leaning away from the well being run dry. So either its the foot valve or pump that's done. In any event I'll be having someone look at it.

For the geothermal, its a 3 stage (22kbtu/29kbtu/aux heat) and from what the repair guy says its normal for them to run for long periods of time (there's only a 15-20f difference between input and output temps) especially when its real cold out. Today we're at 30f outside and it ran for about 3hrs this morning, but hasn't ran since. When it was -25f out, it ran continuously and maintained 64f. Even before the problem started a couple weeks ago, the furnace never really maintained a decent temperature in this place, and required the fireplace insert going to keep it anywhere close to 68. I'm honestly thinking of scrapping the furnace to go to a propane one (along with finishing the basement) and go more traditional.

My last home was less than half the size, and had a finished/insulated basement (this place has an unfinished basement ... project for this summer) and had a 60kbtu NG furnace as an example of what's common around here.

 

[kidstrustfund]

Don't forget restrictions in the well line. It's a good choice calling a pro. Pumps and wells are frustrating to anybody other than a pro. I can't tell you how many hours I've spent wondering what was going on even after plumbing professionally for decades. Tom

 

[merrickvilleguy]

ya seriously, just getting that far took about 3hrs to nail down and get all the numbers together ... the big thing here is I wanted to get an idea of what might be wrong so I won't be taken for a ride by the plumber

 

[milkman636]

Here is a related link:

http://wellowner2.org/2009/index.ph...e&catid=51:home-heating-and-cooling&Itemid=51

 

[TheGoose]

Hello Merrickvileguy,

I am a licensed water well driller and pump installer in the state of tx. From your description of your problem it sounds like you have several possible problems. I will try to the best of my ability give you some solutions but it is difficult to know all the factors sitting behind a computer screen.

First off, the way the water is surging tells me that there may be something wrong with either your pump or tank. This is what I would do.

First, pull the cover off of the pressure switch and observe the contacts. Run the water until the contacts shut, which will turn on the well pump. Make sure that the contacts are staying shut and not opening/closing rapidly. If this is the case then you have a restriction in the 1/4" line going to the switch. Be careful, the points are energized and 230V can KILL!!

You can easily test if your pump is good if you can find a way to easily block in the incoming flow with a valve and install a gauge on the pump side. I would try to run the pump and then slowly block in the gauge until you are almost dead-headed. When you approach the dead-head pressure you should have well over 100 psi on your gauge. If you do block in the valve all the way be careful because a submersible pump can produce well over 100 psi and if there is a relief valve in the line you could pop it and it may not re-seat or you could damage your incoming line or plumbing. It is difficult to know these things without being there myself. I am unfamiliar with local standards in Canada so you must take these thoughts into consideration.

If your pump will pressure up then we can eliminate that as the problem. Next I would try to find out if the incoming line will pump steady flow. This could tell us if your well is producing enough water to keep up with the pump. I realize that being in the basement it may be a little difficult to do this but I really don't know how it could be done. Perhaps there is a way to send a line outside to let the open discharge line flow outside or run a hose outside? Using the pressure valve we installed I would start out with a low flow, say 2-3 GPM and then open the valve up until your water starts either pulsating or stops/starts completely. If it either pulsates or starts/stops then you have a problem with your production.