Prosecute the parents?

[patrickg]

The author of the piece (a woman) mentioned that their had been a "rash" of these needless deaths so the prosecuter was moved to take action. Touchy feely aside, the state must do that which is required to maintain order. It was a clear viloation of the law. Irrespective of how sorry anyone was, or how much or often he would punish himself thinking about it, it was the prosecuter's duty to pursue the matter. I think all the leniency required was shown by the prosecuter's intent to not jail the creep. Yes if you will, an example needed to be set, and shuldl have been done in each case waranting it not just after a "rash" of these cases.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

I respectfully suggest that you dry your eyes, read my original post, and respond to what it actually said not what you apparently thought it said. The prosecuter was moved to file on the guy and stated up front that he would N O T seek jail time but community service and safety training as "punishment".

Don't shoot the messenger! I didn't prosecute the guy. I tried to make a plea for being careful with children, especially the ones too young to know any better. Funny thing, I'm trying to make a case for folks being careful with children and get castigated for trying to lynch the poor ignorant bastard that can't pour water out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel. It ain't me, guy. I wasn't there!

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Mike, Feel better now? Venting usually helps. Note: I never suggested he should do jail time. Don't shoot the messenger. No one suggested he do jail time in themagazine or these possts.

If you are on the scene of an accident where a child gets injured or killed because mommy or daddy wanted to show junior a fun time so they let him sit in their lap and "drive" then something goes wrong and junior is injured or dead, do you excuse the parent because of their loss? Do you think the law requiring seatbelts and child restraints only is for when the parent "feels" like it? Do you objectively measure the depth of their grief (feel their pain) say using a graduated flask to measure on scene tears per unit time and if they exceed your personal expectation then it isn't a legal lissue any more? How much do I have to regret shooting my neighbor before its OK?


Patrick

 

[patrickg]

This and some previous posts are convincing me that this sort of report causes us to quickly line up in one of several (three or so) queues. I think you're in the its OK cause it made him cry a lot and he will be punished by the memories queue. I didn't prosecute the ignorant bastard. If I had I may have been moved to file on him for the kids not being in a child restraint while on a state highway for starters. If it encouraged one parent to take proper precautions and prevented injury or death to one defenseless kid then it was a good thing for the state to have done. Feeling bad after later doesn't make it right. I know my apparent anti-touchy feely posture isn't popular just now but all law is not best modified situationally. Jury nullification isn't always a good thing. Sometimes when you do something stupid it is so stupid that it is reasonable to think you know better and that makes you culpable. I do not fail to understand his mental anguish, torment, and heart rending remorse but I do fail to understand how that changes the law. If he were Chester the molester off his medication for a couple days and did someone's daughter's Sunday school class B U T cried a lot and was truly conflicted over it and really really wished he hadn't done it, would that excuse him from prosecution?

Patrick

 

[RPM]

I side with patrickg on this one.

It is 'reckless endangerment' - the parent/operator should know better - the kids don't and therefore need some measure of protection - they are the classic innocents in these cases. If it was an adult riding in the bucket it would be their own dumb fault.

However sad, it is absolutely necessary to prosecute these cases to the fullest to PROTECT other children by making other operators think about their actions.

Maybe there should be a new acronym - DWS - Driving While Stupid.

Patrick

 

[cowboydoc]

I also have a real problem with prosecuting this guy for that. My girls ride the mule all over the pasture. It clearly states noone under 16 should ride. If they get in a wreck on it and one of them gets hurt does that mean that I should be prosecuted? She also has her own four wheeler and go-cart that she is not at the age to ride either. If she gets hurt should I be held responsible? She also goes out every day to help me feed and drives the truck while I throw hay off the back. It's in 4 low and granny gear going about 5 mph but I suppose something could happen. She also ropes calves and heels in team roping. Sometimes ropers get their hands or thumbs caught in the dally and get it jerked off. If she gets hurt roping am I responsible? If I get prosecuted for a felony like this guy I lose my license to practice. I don't think that I'm putting my daughter in any danger but I'm sure there are those of you out there that are horrified that she does those things. Who is the judge and jury here?

Who's right and who's wrong? Like someone pointed out that warning labels are not there to be laws they are there to protect the company from lawsuits. There was an interesting case here in town where a guy ran a red light on accident and was charged with assault because the guy in the other car was injured. They later pleaded it to reckless driving. How ridiculous is that? It came out that the guy was from the west and had just moved out here. Alot of the old street lights here are not in the middle of the intersection but rather on the side of the street. He had never seen traffic lights on the side of the street. But what should have been a simple traffic light ticket turned into a nightmare for this guy.

If you prosecute this guy for criminal negligence or whatever then how many of us haven't sped with kids in the car? That's breaking the law isn't it? Now what if you get in a wreck because you were speeding and one of your kids gets hurt or killed? Does that mean we prosecute you? This guy didn't even break any laws that he knew of. Maybe the guy didn't know that his kid would bounce out of the skidsteer. I'm sure he didn't. Accidents happen period.

There is not one person on this board that can say they did not do a stupid act that could have resulted in the death of another person. Just because it looks stupid after the fact doesn't mean the person knew it was stupid at the time. Let me give you a perfect example. When I was about 16 years old I was out target shooting with my .22. It was a lever action and I got a shell jammed in it. Well I thought ok I can just hit the lever really hard and get the shell out. Well the shell went off and part of the casing came back and stuck in the orbital bone of my eye. I had to go and have it dug out and stitches. The doc said that if it had been a quarter inch lower it would have went through my eye. DUMB looking back on it but at the time it seemed like a good idea. I just have a real hard time holding people responsible for accidents that were not in anyway intentional. Where do you draw the line? Like I said before what seem really stupid and irresponsible to one is not to another person. Yes learn from mistakes but don't prosecute people for making mistakes. If that's the case then we are all in alot of trouble.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Patrick…

I absolutely love your passion for justice… I wish this sort of passion was used to prosecute all the gun and drug cases that get plea bargained down to jaywalking… {of course I’m exaggerating… but in some cases I’m not too far off…}

In this particular case, I think the DA used some good old fashion common sense and justice was served correctly.

I would use all your arguments and energy against the drug and gun cases that don’t have common sense applied for justice.

Yes, I agree… Let’s prosecute the parents… of the suspects {kids?} of every school shooting that has ever, and will ever occur on U.S. soil.

We certainly don’t need more laws or legislation enacted …only to be ignored… we need the current laws to be enforced and prosecuted…

We need simple common sense back in the system…

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Holy exaggeration Batman, all I was saying is crap happens. Life is a dangerous pastime. None of us are going to make it out alive. Some of us will have our lives cut short. I could start naming off people and animals that have been killed off in one way or another that wasn't very pretty. That is one of the few bad things about living in the country. I was not defending this guy's actions, merely stating that life is precious and can be lost at any moment for the most unbelievably stupid thing. Like taking a ride in a bucket.

 

[patrickg]

Justice. My favorite insulated mug said a mouthfull. I had a set of mugs with different comic book characters on each. ONe was Superman another Batman, etc. On the Batman mug, Batman is punching out a stereotypical bad guy with a three day growth of beard and narrow set squinty eyes etc. The bad guy's baloon says, "you can't do this it ain't legal!" As Batman punches him POW!!!, he says, I am not so interested in the law as in justice!"

Sorry, I'm back now. They finally get my medication right for the hot weather and it cools off.

I am not a member of the "First Church on the Left of Whatever Feels Good, Do It!" I have difficulty with situationalism. I have difficulty with Slick Willie's not haveing had sex with that woman. If it were his daughter and a secret service guy, I bet it would have been sex. I have difficulty with the odds that if the previously discussed child endangerment case came up in California, the parents would have found someone to sue based on the spreading belief that if anything bad happens it is someone elses fault and they can be sued.

For 10 yrs my wife and I were in search and rescue (Pac Ocean, coastal region from down in Mex to North county San Diego.) We were uniformed volunteers, an auxilliary unit of the US Coast Guard under official orders and for the duration of our missions considered a Government vessel. Folks used to hate us when we would even suggest they shouldn't have toddlers riding on the bow and that children should wear PFD's not just have them stored under a seat somewhere. I won't even go into the stats on PWC's (Personal Water Craft, wave runners etc.) Heard that three wheelers are outlawed for import due to their danger? PWC stats make three wheelers seem like a childs stroller. Try to say something that will save a life to a moron bent on letting his kids kill other kids with their shiny new torpedos. Tears, weeping, wailing, and nashing of teeth after the fact don't cut it. There are laws now and more on the way to help control that mayhem. Deaths recorded in California for operators as young as 6 yrs. Think the kid bought it with his alowance or maybe dad set him on the seat and shoved him off.

I gotta go (again with apologies to Ian Sholes (Dr. Science, at the Duck's Breath Theater)

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Yes, and some of us are saying that if what you do is so unbelievably stupid that it is criminally negligent and harms an innocent child the state has the responsibility to prosecute you irrespective of how touchy feely someone gets or how much you cry and rend your garmets. It does not pit us against each other or initiate a Feel the pain contest. No one here would even think , well he deserved to lose the child if he didn't take care of it or anything like that. We aren't monsters but we think there is an orderly process by which the state soberly and carefully attends to its members who risk the lives of those who can't protect themselves.

To do nothing, invites continuation, not necessarily from that "parent" and it pains me to call him that, but from the populace at large. There is a general, lets do whatever feels good and if something bad happens, oh well we'll be sorry, for a bit or find someone to sue. There is personal accountability. It just isn't very popular just now.

In general, in human behavior (or with many animals), behavior which is rewarded is repeated or increased and the contrary is operant also. In the instance in question, not being prosecuted vs being prosecuted would certainly be a reward. Wrong message. I don't have a problem with lenient sentencing, safety training (he has another kid) and community service (spreads the word among the populace).

This just isn't a sympathy contest. I can be extremely sympathetic to his loss but condem him for his personal responsibility in having caused it.

Patrick