Rural Living??

[RobS]

<font color=blue>what makes a varmit or predator a varmit or predator.
</font color=blue>

Kind of the difference between a plant and a weed. Someone's signature says it just right. Something about a weed is a plant whose virtues have not yet been realized?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Robert,

I respect and appreciate the fact that here on TBN, controversial topics are sometimes explored. In that spirit and with no ill-intent, I'd like to make some observations about "wishy-washiness".

You ask " why push nature out of the way?", and then tell of the "Blast" you had, shooting prairie dogs.

You had fun,... the prairie dogs had death! (or worse, if you're anything less than a 100% certain "killer" shot. Crawling back, maimed and suffering, into a hole to share your unneccesay death with maggots, and a slow-ticking "clock", has to be something I'm surprised that you are only "wishy-washy" about inflicting on any animal). The often used rationalization that "Nature con inflict cruel death, too!" is true-but-pointless, ...unless you buy the 2-wrongs-make-a-right theory.

The question isn't whether "cruelty" exists. The question is whether YOU want-to/should be cruel. Most-of-us wouldn't want to admit to a "yes" answer. But the true answer will be revealed by our actions!

For many people, realizing that what we are doing is cruel takes the "fun" out-of-it. Maybe that's why many others are reluctant to let that realization "in". "All I have to do is decide my cruelty isn't cruel, and it will just be 'harmless' FUN! Everybody likes to have fun!"

Destroying another creatures life, for the inane purpose of "seeing if you-can-do-it", is something I like to think most would have satisfied themselves about as children, with the flies'-wings experiments and such.

I'll offer this answer for any other such "can I do it?" questions; "Yes, of course!" Any human being with more intellectual-development-than-spiritual, can line-up crosshairs, squeeze-a trigger, and wreak hi-tech havoc on any other living thing unfortunate-enough to be in his presence.

And having done it, what is it that he has done??
Demonstrated any particular talent? No, any idiot with a modicum-of-practice and access to a firearm-and-ammunition can, if he makes it priority, find out where other species can be found on this planet, go-there, and, if sufficiently uncaring and ruthless, DESTROY things! (Not only can idiots do it, idiots DO.)

Here's the scenario: "Got prarie dogs?" / " Plenty, ...jump-in! - Here we are. Now just pick a good rest, and set for a while ,... they'll come out of their holes, and you can pick 'em off." / BLAM!! --" Yahoo!! Got him ( I think!) ... and that's number 17!! Wow, ... I can't figure-out whether I'm more like John Wayne, ...or Daniel Boone!"

This is what you get when you raise generations of kids on "Blast-'em" video games, and priorities like "Kickin'-a--", and being "number 1".

When I think of the respectful atitude that my dad and other adults tried to promote and teach about wildlife, hunting, etc. many of today's "sportsmen" seem utterly CLUELESS by comparison.

There just HAS-to-be a better way to deal with any doubts about one's sexual-prowess! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif This kind of killing "for SPORT" is not "sporting" in any sense. It Is neither Killing-for-food, nor in self-defense. It is usually not killing to protect one's prize show-horses or other livestock from "breaking-their-legs" in prarie dog holes. ( The fact that SOMEtime, SOMEplace, SOME people's stock have been injured, makes it "convenient" for the rest of us to use the "varmint" label applied by those ranchers as a "reason" that we "should" kill any of those nasty-critters we can find)( Interesting comparison,... If "causing damage" to other things warranted a "death-sentence", we humans would all be gone!). It shows nothing about one's "wilderness-skills" that a paper target wouldn't show. Outwitting the "quarry' with a brain the-size-of-a-peanut, only indicates that the brain of the shooter may be slightly LARGER-than-a-peanut.And that he is more-of-a-threat to other living-things, than most anything else. "What a guy, he actually sat in one spot, with a "machine"(made by someone-else) making-up for all his own lack of ability to "cut-it" in any kind of real natural struggle, and BLEW living things AWAY!" Power-trip, anyone?

I don't know which is the most saddening,... reflecting on what this type of person wasn't taught,... or on what they won't teach!

Any half-witted human has more ability than most any other creature, when it comes to thinking of how-to-do things. The measure of his development as a "superior" species might better be measured by his judgement as to WHETHER-or-not to do them.

I half-expect to be censored for this post, ... it's pretty sharp-pointed. And many members and their families have probably been having this kind of "fun" for generations.

But hey, The Emporer is NUDE, man!! (Progress, anyone?)

P.C. be damned! (wishy-washiness, too!) /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

Larry

 

[RobertN]

This is basically the point I was trying to get at.

Yes, I have been out shooting prairie dogs. It was a few years back, with the definite varmit mentality. As you can see I question that choice now.

But why should they be a varmit? As you mentioned, once in a great while a cow may happen to stumble into one.

There is still a big stink in Wyoming and Montana about reintro of wolves; many ranchers will shoot on sight.

so, where should the line be drawn? when do you exterminate the varmit, whether it be a wolf, cougar, prairie dog, or a gopher in the garden or lawn? they just doing what nature does.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[cowboydoc]

Why do ranchers detest praire dogs, wolves, coyotes, cougars, etc.? The main reason is that they kill people and they kill livestock. A cougar will go through a dozen calves or more and horses in calving and foaling season, same with a wolf. Praire dog holes have been responsible for my brother laying in a hopsital for six months with a skull fracture, an uncle that died from one and numerous horses and cattle that have broken legs and had to be destroyed. Now the rancher paid for that land with sweat, blood, and tears. Cattle and farm prices are ridiculously low, so much so that every single calf born, cow, horse, dog, etc. is counted on to make that place work. You start losing calves and foals to predators and varmits and you're out of business. It's a slim, slim profit margin if you even make it at all. I really have a problem with people that have not lived the way of life and know what it's like to work 365 days a year, 16 hours a day just to rub two nickels together! Yet that's the life of most farmers and ranchers. It's a crap shoot from year to year. For every 1 that makes it five others fail. It's not an easy life. Most ranchers care for the land for all they're worth. They take wasteland and make it something. They protect the land from erosion, overgraizing, etc. We have state parks, national forest, bureau of land management ground, etc. Those are the places for your nature. Why should the rancher support nature? Is anyone paying him to do it? How many of you would like to start coughing up for the cattle, horses, damage to the ground, loss of life, etc. then I'm sure the rancher would love to listen to your requests. If the goverment and those of you that are so nature loving want to go and pay the rancher or the farmer for the generations of hard work and buy the land back, pay them for their years of hard labor, and put it into nature again then so be it, I'm sure most of them would sell. Until that time be careful what you say about people you don't know anything about. That one cougar that would be left to roam just forced another rancher to go bankrupt and lose his ranch.

 

[Von]

Richard,
All I have to say is "WELL SAID" I think you speak for alot of us! I hear people moan about the deer hunters, and then are the first ones to say shoot them all after they hit one with the car!

 

[RobertN]

I niether said we should ,or shouldn't, exterminate varmits, I just posed the question of where we should draw the line. I did not say that I was super nature lover either. I do not diagree with you on the subject, but at the same time do question where the line is drawn.

My family had a commercial chicken ranch for years, finally shut down when they couldn't compete with the big boys. They had problems with coyotes, skunks, and of all things, loose domestic dogs. My Dad had to take care of them a number of times over the years(They shut down while I was young). Running 120,000 chickens, plus some sheep and cattle, my Dad and Grandfather had livestock and fowl to protect. And, yes, my Grandfather had a great respect for the land, and how he could manage it. I do not question that. 16 hours day were a way of life

Your brother being hurt stepping in a dog hole is the first time I have heard of it first hand. I've heard of it, but not from someone who really knows. I respect that.

I agree that there are places set aside for nature. Those ranches though, used to be part of nature. Some of that nature was displaced, by very hard work, to make room for cows, sheep, horses, grain, corn ect. Can nature still share a part of it, or should it be/remain removed from that land.

I do cough up for lost animals and crops. The BLM pays out billions of dollars to make up for livestock lost to predators, and crops lost to grazing wildlife. That is my tax money the BLM is paying out. I know, because I have family that work those issues in a midwest state.

I do not want a rancher to lose his livelyhood. I do not think there is enough respect in this country right now for those men and women who feed this nation. So many people are used to the super-market; they don't understand what it takes to raise the meat and crops that feed them.

This is certianly a touchy subject. After being in Wyoming while petitions were going around to stop wolf reintro, I've seen the faces of some those ranchers.



RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[cowboydoc]

Robert,
I was merely responding to your question of why can't the ranchers live with nature. As far as nature being there when the land was developed well that is only true to a small degree. Most of the nature that is on land owned by farmers and ranchers has migrated there because of the increased forage and livestock on the land because of the improvements that the rancher has made to the ground. Because of these improvements then nature becomes out of control because of the abundance of food. So I guess if you want to look at it your way the rancher is merely killing what he's already raised. Now the BLM has no land in the midwest so I'm not sure where that came from. All of the BLM land is in the west. As far as billions it's a few million. The disaster relief that is paid out on crops is only given IF you purchase the insurance that the federal government sells. As far as damage to livestock the BLM has no programs that will pay for lost or killed livestock EXCEPT by wolves and that is through the forest service. The budget last year for that was less than a million dollars. Some programs will pay for damage to crops by wildlife but there is only a very small amount of money allocated to that and it is a mile of paperwork that you have to go through to get it, certainly not even close to a billion dollars. You certainly raise some VERY valid points about senseless killing etc., I was only responding to the why with regard to ranchers and nature.

 

[GrantMO]

This is an good discussion! Richard, my mentality has always been to view the coyote as something to be strongly controlled and that came from being ingrained from my family's livestock background in the past. You know, despite a lot of people thinking that way and killing coyotes whenever they see one, their numbers are higher than ever across the country. They seem to find ways to live alongside man very well and are often a very real threat to young or lame livestock.
Cougars are different. A single cougar may not be able to be bluffed or scared off like a coyote. They had a ballot issue when I was in Oregon to ban dog hunting and I think bait hunting for cougars and bears. They got it passed but guess what will happen. 1. People increasingly build in cougar country and come into contact with them more. 2. People get hurt, or more likely pets get attacked and eaten. 3. The state calls in professional hunters who use dogs to run down the cat and it gets put elsewhere or more likely killed.

My question is why couldn't they have worked out a system to allow limited dog hunting, especially in areas where contact is very likely, make money off the hunting licenses and save money in what they now have to pay professional hunters to do?
This is just my opinion but these are very emotional problems and when laws and rules get passed based mostly on emotion, no one thinks of the consequences. Since I haven't lived in Oregon for 4 years, if someone there would like to update this I'd be grateful.

 

[RobertN]

They have a hard time working out a system because most of those elected are from the city, and support those in the city. They do not understand anything to with issues outside the city.

I see that here in the Sierra foothilss. Instead of trying to strike a balance, there is the city folks who think cougars are cute and there are those in the country who think they are vile. Instead of striking a balance, both go to extremems. But, most of the votes come from the city still...

You hit the nail on the head; it's emotional. There's a large number of folks who are not from the country, who get emotional and get the bills passed.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[RobertN]

Being from the "far west", I guess I consider a few western states as midwest... Yes, I believe you are right, millions, not billions.

I think now the rancher might raise what they kill. But, those critters were always there. For crops, I would say you are right on; why graze and forage over miles of territory if you can graze on this great grain someone put there for you.

It's a interesting topic, with lots of emotion. There is a lot that people do not think about, and a lot of times do not realize, that goes on out there. The one nice thing about this forum, is people have so much to share, and most of us are willing to learn from the shared expieriences.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif