Scope problem

[EddieWalker]

Uh -sorry but close range shooting does go a long way to proving the accuracy of a rifle. It reduces a number of variables introduced in long range shooting. If you cannot get the rifle to group at short distances it certainly will not group at long distances.

I won't disagree that short range is usefull for getting on paper and a good starting point. I will disagree with you that short distance target practice will do anything to improve long range accuracy.

The only way to learn how to shoot at long range is to shoot long range. I consider 100 yards close range. It is an easy distance to practice and start make sure the rifle is accurate, but then you have to start shooting 300 yards to know what your rifle willd and what you are capable of. I've made several 500 yard kills, but consider 300 to be my comfort zone.

Eddie

 

[whistlepig]

It sure seems like something is loose on this gun. I've seen smooth bore muskets shoot better than this at that range.

 

[studor]

Three rounds after adjusting the scope 8" won't tell you much. It could be as simple as the scope adjustment "binding" when you make it and recoil putting it where it wanted to go. It could also be bedding since you let it cool after the first shot -- or - - as Eddie says -- it could be you. Unfortunately, even at a buck a round you need to put more shots through it (without cleaning) to judge. (Typically the first shot after a cleaning will differ from those fired from a fouled barrel.)
Eddie -- I think we are in violent agreement except on one point -- long range shooting only proves the shooter, not the rifle. If you cannot get a rifle to shoot well at short range, longer ranges simply magnify the problem.

 

[N80]

Eddie, I'll never claim it isn't me, but over the last few weeks I've been doing a ton of shooting. I've sighted in at least 7 rifles. No other problems. None. This one has had two scopes and two stocks on it and shooting up and down strings seems to be the trend.

As far as things being tight, everything is tight. Is everything too tight? Who knows.

Again, this is the only rifle not shooting very very well.

As mentioned, I plan on shooting it again next weekened. I stopped last time due to frustration.....sometimes you have to walk away.

 

[EddieWalker]

I forgot that you said you are shooting other guns and doing well with them. That does indicate something odd with this one. The pattern is either breathing or mechanical. I think that ammo is fine for now. It might not get you one inch groups, but once you get it to pattern, you can fine tune the group by trying different loads.

Sometimes you just have to keep going over every part until you notice what you've missed. Is the barrel tight? is it clean? Could there be copper build up that you can't see? Is the firing pin hitting the primer the same every time? are the threads for the stock in good shape and secure? Are the rings true and the base secure?

I have been known to go to the experts and have a pro look at my rifle. My Browning A Bolt .338 win mag was giving me issues and it turned out to be copper fouling and flinching on my part after so many shots. Two problems that kept getting worse, but neither that I was aware of at the time.

Eddie

 

[N80]

Before this most recent shooting session the gun was completely disassembled and cleaned. Scope removed. Base removed. Rings removed. Bore cleaned thoroughly with bore cleaner. Gun re-assembled, put in different stock (well tightended), Millet base put back on (blue loctite on screws) and tightended thoroughly. New scope put on. Bore sighted. Three shots at 25 yards in a 1 inch-ish group, a little high. Cools for 20 minutes. Next two shots at 100 yards are centered, 8" high and about an inch apart. Adjust scope downward. Wait 10 minutes to cool....barrel cool to touch. Shot labeled # 3 on image posted is the next shot. Dead center bull's eye and exactly where the adjustment should have placed it. Let barrel cool again. Shot #4 is high. Let it cool for at least 20 minutes, no adjustment and shot #5 is the result.....almost touching shot #4.

There is almost nothing that I can think of to do or to check.

As mentioned. Next weekend I'm going to shoot at this same target. If it groups with shots 4 and 5 then shot #3 must have been a fluke (me, in other words). If it does not group with shots 4 and 5 then there is no basis upon which to make changes and I'm done. Gun goes in the closet.

Edit: as far as flinching goes, well this is a .308 and recoil is mild even for a small, light rifle. But I still shoot with a folded towel on my shoulder when I'm sighting in rifles and it has made a huge difference for me in terms of not flinching and squeezing the trigger. And I don't shoot anything bigger than a 30-06 and my .358 Winchester (which is not a magnum).

I will also mention this: even with a thin duplex reticle the 1 inch bull's eye is almost completelt covered by the reticle on my 4x scopes at 100 yards.....but this has not been an issue with my other two rifles with 4x scopes.

 

[charlz]

I know my Remington 700 in .06 will climb like crazy as the barrel warms. I generally just worry about the first 'cold bore' shot since that is the one that counts when hunting. If my first shot at the range is where I was aiming I put it away don't worry about it.

I have one of those laser bore sighters that goes in the end of the barrel. I find it useful for getting a new scope on the paper but you still have to adjust the scope to the way you shoot. I sight in at 100 yards to start and then a few shots at 200 and 300 to make sure the elevation is good. I use a Leupold scope with the Long Range reticle, gives you a few mildots below the cross hairs. You zero to 200 yards and then each dot is another 100 yards. Pretty hand out west here where your game might be 25 yards or it might be 500.

 

[RobertN]

The kids like it, it is sentimental. As mentioned before, I would have a Smith check it out.

One thing I have not heard mentioned, but I have seen a lot at the range... You are supporting the rifle on sandbags, with the front of the stock on the sandbag, not the barrel? I only ask, because I see it all the time at the range, and people wind up with odd "groups" because of it.

On the range, I always support the rifle on sandbags, under the fore-stock, and under the rear of the stalk.

I reloaded for a Rem 700 30-06 a few years back. Speer 150gr spire points in Remington brass, with 4064. I had to take my time with the sporter weight barrel, but it would group 1.5" or a little smaller all day long.

I have been shooting some 30-06 Ackley Improved in a Win 70; I notice more creep with it. Definitely more sensitive to the barrel warming up. But I don't have to wait more than a few minutes between shots. Certainly not 20 minutes.

You've covered most everything already...
- possible pressure point issue at end of stock
- torque of screws retaining action in stock.
- Scope and mounts removed, degreased and cleaned spotless before assembly
- base installed spotless clean, with screws blue lock tight
- rings installed spotless clean, use a dowel to ensure alignment before installing scope
- scope spotless clean, rings and screws spotless clean, and installed
- Barrel kept clean, copper fouling removed

Those are the things I have seen that would affect accuracy and repeatability.

Before this most recent shooting session the gun was completely disassembled and cleaned. Scope removed. Base removed. Rings removed. Bore cleaned thoroughly with bore cleaner. Gun re-assembled, put in different stock (well tightended), Millet base put back on (blue loctite on screws) and tightended thoroughly. New scope put on. Bore sighted. Three shots at 25 yards in a 1 inch-ish group, a little high. Cools for 20 minutes. Next two shots at 100 yards are centered, 8" high and about an inch apart. Adjust scope downward. Wait 10 minutes to cool....barrel cool to touch. Shot labeled # 3 on image posted is the next shot. Dead center bull's eye and exactly where the adjustment should have placed it. Let barrel cool again. Shot #4 is high. Let it cool for at least 20 minutes, no adjustment and shot #5 is the result.....almost touching shot #4.

 

[N80]

Robert, I put the fore end of the stock and the rear of the stock in a V-shaped bag made for that purpose. Once the gun is situated I can usually back out and have it stay pretty much on target. And your advice to take it to a gunsmith is sound but I now have too many other accurate rifles to spend any more money on this one.

charlz, you might be right. I'll find out this weekend. As mentioned, first shot after adjustment and ample cooling was dead center bulls eye. Next two after ample cooling time were high and together. So to revise my thinking, if the next cold barrel shot is in the bulls eye again, I will consider this a good cold barrel one shot wonder. If the next cold barrel shot groups with the two high shots, I'll make scope adjustments, allow ample cooling time and if it follows those adjustments then we're good again. (And to be honest, if the gun shoots a 3" group at 100' I'd be satisfied. But if the next cold shot goes somewhere else......that's it.

Thanks to all for all the helpful replies. Even if I can't get this gun whipped into shape I have learned tons!

 

[RobertN]

I pretty much figured you were supporting it right, but had to ask. Like I mentioned, I see people with barrel on sandbag every time I go to the range.

I'm just sentimental myself; that why I mention going to a Smith

Robert, I put the fore end of the stock and the rear of the stock in a V-shaped bag made for that purpose. Once the gun is situated I can usually back out and have it stay pretty much on target. And your advice to take it to a gunsmith is sound but I now have too many other accurate rifles to spend any more money on this one.