subsoiler or moldboard plow

[dirt clod]

I know what both are and understand how there used. I have not used a subsoiler, I have used turning plow or moldboard plow alot though. I'm renovating a old pasture and planting for winter forage. It is hard packed sand/loam with clay 8-10" below. We have always used a turning for gardening and it made a big differance than if just disced or tilled. I'm not sure what it is that the turning plow is doing that helps. It could be the rolling over of the dirt increases the thickness of the top soil. It could be that as the water seeps through the loamy soil it takes with it what the plants would feed on and that the clay being finer and closer pack it doesnt go through it, so turning brings everything back up to the top soil. If it is any or all of the above it does a job that a subsoiler would not do. But if what the moldboard plow is doing is to break the hard pan and break into the clay layer some what then a subsoiler would do a much better job and maybe thats why I seldom see a new moldboard plow for sell. There's many on here with more wisdom than me, please share some with me

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I know what both are and understand how there used. I have not used a subsoiler, I have used turning plow or moldboard plow alot though. I'm renovating a old pasture and planting for winter forage. It is hard packed sand/loam with clay 8-10" below. We have always used a turning for gardening and it made a big differance than if just disced or tilled. I'm not sure what it is that the turning plow is doing that helps. It could be the rolling over of the dirt increases the thickness of the top soil. It could be that as the water seeps through the loamy soil it takes with it what the plants would feed on and that the clay being finer and closer pack it doesnt go through it, so turning brings everything back up to the top soil. If it is any or all of the above it does a job that a subsoiler would not do. But if what the moldboard plow is doing is to break the hard pan and break into the clay layer some what then a subsoiler would do a much better job and maybe thats why I seldom see a new moldboard plow for sell. There's many on here with more wisdom than me, please share some with me

You may have already answered your own question. Moldboard plows can help a hard packed piece of ground, but just as likely, they'll make the situation worse. Plows create a layer of compaction just below their working depth. (Appropriately known as "plow pan") Ultimately, any tillage method you choose SHOULD break up any existing compaction layer. That is exactly what a subsoiler is intended to do. Modern farming practices, done on a large scale, have a new term for essentially the same technique. It's called "deep ripping".

Field cultivators work to a depth comparable to old fashioned plowing and discing. Chisel plows usually work just a bit deeper. They came into vogue as a way of breaking up years of compaction done by moldboard plowing. (Discing will create its own compaction layer also) Deep ripping is done to go one step better over chisel plowing. When done with big, heavy, high horsepower tractors, deep ripping will argueably create it's own compaction. Part of the theory of no-tilling is nature undoes the compaction by lessening the amount of passes with heavy tractors, along with freeze/thaw cycles breaking up the compaction layers (called "heaving")

Subsoilers, especially when used with a relatively lightweight tractor, can undue the compaction in short order. Some soils respond better to subsoiling/ripping when dry. That shatters soil rather than just simpley ripping a cut in it. Some soils respond to that "cut" in wetter conditions. (Or so I've been told) Soil where I live does much better when subsoiled in dry fall conditions. Almost without fail, wet soils will absorb rains better, and tend to dry quicker when excessive rains hit after being subsoiled/deep ripped.

The best results I've ever had with rebuilding a worn out pasture were with subsoiling first north/south, the east/west, then after a couple rains, no-till seeding, minimizing surface tillage.

And for what it's worth, that opinion is from a guy who'll sink a plow in the ground at the drop of a hat. As much as I like plowing, far more often than not, there are much better ways to prep a seedbed.

 

[dirt clod]

The field is compacted from cows and equipment traffic for many years.
A tiller or disc would not dig deep enough. I know a turning plow makes a big differance just never understood why. Do you feel the subsoiler would do a better job? I would think it would be much quicker also.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

The field is compacted from cows and equipment traffic for many years.
A tiller or disc would not dig deep enough. I know a turning plow makes a big differance just never understood why. Do you feel the subsoiler would do a better job? I would think it would be much quicker also.

Cattle or horses will pack grond far worse than the heaviest equipment, especially if they've been on the ground in wet conditions. The hardest piece of dirt I ever tried to work up was a feed lot for 20 some odd years. Concrete would have plowed easier.

I'm not sure how much advantage subsoiling would have in terms of time. From my own experiences, it would probably be a wash. Roughly same time either way. Without knowing all that much about your ground, just generalizing, I'd say the subsoiler would do more long term good.

 

[vallyfarm]

If you can get your plow deep enough to pull up some of that clay, then I would say that is your best bet. Clay is very high in nutrients for the plants, just compacts and drains poorly. If you can get the sandy layer to combine with the clay layer yiu get the best of both soil types. The clay mixed in will help hold moisture that the sand will let drain down. If given the time, I would chisel as deep as I could, that would help get the plow down deeper. Then a rough disk to keep surface erosion to a min. then be ready ti go in the spring. This is what I've been doing for years, except no sand on top. I started with heavy clay loam on the top 4-5 in. then almost potters clay with large rocks below. I'ts been about 10 yrs now and after a lot of manure and rye in the winter, 2-3 crops of buckwheat in the summer, I've got around 12"+ of good med to light clay loam. Can even grow onions the size of softballs in it. Mike

 

[N80]

Due to the lack of rain, and subsequent lack of hay, my B-I-L is running a very large no-till drill to plant wheat, oats and rye for late winter/ early spring forage. His pastures are pretty hard packed by the cows, and they are very hard and dry. But, he's running the drill with no other seed bed prep.

I'm not convinced he's going to have any success (I'm not a farmer and have never played one on TV or stayed at a Day's Inn). But, he says he did it this way years ago and it worked well.

We shall see.

In any case, I don't think he has the time, money or equipment to do any deep ripping. But I sure think it would be a good thing to do.

 

[flusher]

I know what both are and understand how there used. I have not used a subsoiler, I have used turning plow or moldboard plow alot though. I'm renovating a old pasture and planting for winter forage. It is hard packed sand/loam with clay 8-10" below. We have always used a turning for gardening and it made a big differance than if just disced or tilled. I'm not sure what it is that the turning plow is doing that helps. It could be the rolling over of the dirt increases the thickness of the top soil. It could be that as the water seeps through the loamy soil it takes with it what the plants would feed on and that the clay being finer and closer pack it doesnt go through it, so turning brings everything back up to the top soil. If it is any or all of the above it does a job that a subsoiler would not do. But if what the moldboard plow is doing is to break the hard pan and break into the clay layer some what then a subsoiler would do a much better job and maybe thats why I seldom see a new moldboard plow for sell. There's many on here with more wisdom than me, please share some with me

My neighbor is renovating two 10-acre parcels (flat pasture land) using a 90-hp Massey Ferguson. First he made two perpendicular passes with an offset disc. He had to add considerable weight to the disc to get it to dig in.

Then he used a single shank parabolic ripper (subsoiler) to break up the hardpan. It's a heavy implement similar to the rippers used with bulldozers on construction sites.

He made one diagonal pass with the ripper with the passes separated about 30 inches. Then he made another pass in the other diagonal direction. From the size of that ripper I'd say he was down at least 18" into the soil.

Then he disced again like before.

Heavy going in very dry soil (no appreciable rainfall since last May). Lotsa dust.

 

[art]

I've worked with many types of soil in the northeast from Vermonts blue clay to our own red clay and the best way to get more soil is with a subsoiler. To only moldboard plow the second worst compactor next to a disc harrow would not help drainage or to really loosen the soil to help roots grow.

Many of our old time plow dedicated customers say they do it to bury the weeds! The seed normally will last 100 years on mayn of them, my thoughts are to sweeten the soil and many won't grow till it turns sour again with low PH. The low PH means more weed killers won't work as well as the fertilizer you put down will have to be increased because it can't work without good PH.

 

[Gizmo36]

No till is the only way to go if you are putting rye in a pasture for cows . You don't wanted to plow up your pasture if you are running cows on it. If he did he would have to wait 3 years before he could put cows back on it . or they would Kill the grass.But he could subsoil .

 

[dirt clod]

I have way more field than cattle now. 8 cows,2 bulls,2 horses and a silly pig that herds with 'em on about 120 acres. Land has supported 60 head in the past.Some places are getting grown up in briars, so I know from that alone I need lime. I'm planning to grow fall forage so I don't have to feed hay(even if could find any). My plans was to rehab sections at a time and plant winter forage and millet next summer and let the grass come back. I never would have thought a mold board plow would be bad for compaction. I looked at pasture renovators and they look to me like they do the same thing as subsoiler just not as deep and they have more "tines" to cover more ground. I think now I will try part of the section with moldboard and tilled and another section just subsoiled. Thanks for the replies