syn oil not good for older engines

   / syn oil not good for older engines #61  
Roy,
I am not absolutely certain, but I believe the lower number is the viscosity of the oil without the additives that cause the viscosity to increase as the temperatures increase. As these additives wear out I am concerned that adequate viscosity is not being maintained for the higher temperatures. Does anyone know if synthectic oil additives are the same as non synthetic oil additives ?
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines
  • Thread Starter
#62  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Their published FAQ rather makes it policy, for liability purposes, but the e-mail may have been more to the fact. John )</font>

The scarry part is it probably is not duplicity.. but rather lack of communication.. sort of a 'right hand doesn't know what left hand is doing.. and left hand doesn't even know wht it is doing.. let alone worry about the right hand /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif'

Soundguy
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines #63  
I dont work for Exxon/Mobil, so take my opinion for what its worth...but to the best of my knowledge, the additives ARE the same in synthetic or non-synthetic from the same manufacturer.
The reason is because the oil patents rights on a lubricant relate to the additive package. Or saying it another way, you cant patent "oil" but you can patent a formulated lubricant (oil plus additives).
Hope this helps...
dwight
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines #64  
Here is an excerpt from the Valvoline website. Looks like manufacturers are phasing out single grade oil, so all of us single grade users will be forced to go to multi-vis for all uses, including our lawnmowers. I did notice at Walmart yesterday that there were substantially fewer single grade brands to choose from compared to a couple of years ago. Sorry for the long post, but this is the most comprehensive non-technical explanation I could find. As for additive packages, the additives do decrease in effectiveness as miles/operating hours pile up and can wear out, so our goal should be to change oil before the oil wears out/becomes ineffective -- and that's where the miles/hours between oil change arguments begin!

"The viscosity of any oil changes with temperature. The higher the temperature, the lower the viscosity—the oil thins out. On the flipside, the lower the temperature, the higher the viscosity. Because of this, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has established a series of viscosity classifications that establish oil performance at 100 and 0 degrees Celsius (212 and 32 degrees Fahrenheit, respectively).

Highs & Lows
Low-viscosity oils flow better than high-viscosity ones—the lighter-weight fluid is easier to pump and therefore circulates faster through the engine's various galleries. Low-viscosity oils also maintain a lower oil pressure, but the oil pump delivers a greater volume through the galleries than it would with thicker (higher-viscosity) oils. Heavier oils also tend to operate at higher temperatures because the oil pump has to work harder to force the lubricant through the system. Oil does not compress readily, so the added pressure increases the temperature. In the end, high-viscosity oils maintain a higher oil pressure, but the pump delivers a smaller volume of oil.

Multigrades
Multigrade oils typically begin as base oils, such as 10W. Then viscosity-index modifiers (polymers) are added in an effort to stabilize the viscosity. This allows a 10W40 oil to flow like a 10W at cold temperatures and a 40W at higher temperatures. In other words, multigrade oils are formulated to pass viscosity tests across a range of weights. For example, 10W30 meets the requirements for 10-weight at cold temperatures and 30-weight at high temps.
The multigrade oils' viscosity modifiers are long-chain molecules that lessen the change of viscosity with temperature variance. In the past, the polymer additives (used to thicken the oil) were sometimes susceptible to viscosity loss. Permanent viscosity loss occurred when high shear forces (such as the relationship between the main bearings and the crankshaft) actually break the polymer molecules into less-effective smaller pieces. On a similar note, temporary viscosity loss also occurred when the polymer molecules aligned themselves in order to create a path of least resistance.
Fortunately, today's additive packages have improved oil's shear-resistance. However, oils with the same rating from different manufacturers can exhibit different viscosity ratings in an operating engine, depending on the shear stability of their viscosity-modifying additives.
For technoids, weights are defined thusly (strokes and centistrokes are measurements of viscosity):
"SAE 30 is SAE 30 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 0W, 5W or 10W. This viscosity in centistokes (cSt) @ 100 degrees C is with the minimum of 9.3 cSt and a maximum of 12.5 cSt.
"SAE 40 is SAE 40 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 5W, 10W, 15W or 20W. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C is within the minimum of 12.5 cSt and a maximum of 16.3 cSt.
"SAE 50 is SAE 50 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 5W, 10W, 15W or 25W. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C is within the minimum of 16.3 cSt and a maximum of 21.9 cSt.
"SAE 60 is SAE 60 no matter what the "W" prefix number is: 10W, 15W or 25W. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C is within the minimum of 21.9 cSt and a maximum of 26.1 cSt.
"There is no SAE 70 and no one is likely to make one with a "W" prefix number although it is possible using a synthetic base oil. This viscosity is identified as Grade 70. The viscosity @ 100 degrees C has a minimum of 26.1 cSt and no maximum."
The difference between a multigrade and a singlegrade oil: The singlegrade can't pass the low temperature viscosity test. If it did meet one of the following "W" viscosities, it would be a multigrade.
Singlegrade oils will become obsolete for performance engines in the future. We dropped SAE 30 and SAE 40 because SAE 10W40 does everything 30 or 40 can do—and some things the straight grades can't do—like increasing horsepower. If an off-roader doesn't like 10W40, then use 20W50. It can do everything a 10W40 can do except pass the sub-zero viscosity test at -20 degrees C.
Multigrade viscosities are run at six different sub-zero temperatures. When a racing-oil designer puts a formula together, he has to know the viscosity at 100 degrees C of every component in the additive composition. He has to have a target viscosity objective for the finished oil in each SAE grade. Once a formula is established, the technician who supervises the blending has to duplicate this formula in the correct proportions every time the product is blended. The viscosity at 100 degrees C has a plus or minus written into the oil's quality-control specification."
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines
  • Thread Starter
#65  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( including our lawnmowers. I )</font>

That's kinda scarry.. my lawnmower manual states 30w.... and specifies to NOT use 10w30 or damage will result.

If single weight oils are phased out.. they better come up with a multigrade that handles the hundreds of thousands of consumer grade lawn equipment engines that pretty much universally want 30w straight.

Soundguy
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines #66  
all major engine manufacuters now specify u can use a synthetic 10w30 in place of 30w briggs kohler etc.. all have phased in 10w30 synthetic usage..
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines
  • Thread Starter
#67  
When did that take place.. the B/s manual I have for the pressure washer I picked up for work a couple-3 months ago still specified the "warning" use only 30wt motor oil.. not 10w30... Is this recent? I guess the engine/manual could have been in stock for a few months? as well..

Soundguy
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines #68  
I can tell you my experience with putting synthetic in an older engine....

I bought a 1982 Honda Magna with 35,000 miles on it. Didn't leak a drop of oil. Of course, I had to research this model to death until I found an internet site that said, 'to prevent catastrophic cam failure in the early Magnas, synthetic oil MUST be used.' So I changed to Mobil 1 15w-50.

This thing leaks oil in multiple places now, one of which is a seal which requires the crankcase to be split to replace it. Not likely to happen any time soon. So what was once a restorable, decent motorcycle is now a minature Exxon Valdez, slobbering oil wherever it pauses.
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines #69  
Um the online manual for briggs specifies that spec and i reckon best i understood is retro active meaning all engines.. kaw also and kohler have simular clauses now. only one i seen that i've not seen a simular bulliten is tecomeseh or ever how u spell it.
 
   / syn oil not good for older engines #70  
Back in the good ole days with ancient straight grade oil stocks, no engines had any kind of oil filter either..... they sure were primitive back then replacing blown engines all the time.
 
 
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