Buying Advice Tractor mfg backhoe vs. after market backhoe for new tractor purchase?

[Lt CHEG]

Thanks to all for the feedback. A followup question- what are the chances if something goes wrong with the tractor that the tractor mfg could deny covering it under warranty, claiming that the after market BH caused the issue?

Not terribly likely. The cool thing about tractors is that they are designed to power various styles of attachments. A tractor company that voids their warranty based on running an implement made by a different manufacturer wouldn't be in business too long. Tractor companies know that people don't generally change all of their implements when they buy a new tractor. It means that they have to be able to support their tractors while using all manner of implements.

 

[LindenBruce]

This has been interesting. And this info might be a little off topic, but I think it's still in the ballpark. I was at a local MF/MAH dealer looking at tractors about six weeks ago. The sales man told me that CUT's don't have enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. Which caused me pause. He actually told me that backhoe's on CUT's are PTO powered with their own hydraulic systems.

However, when I was at the LS dealer (different dealer just so you know) the business owner told me that LS tractors have more than enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. I have known the LS business dealer for many years and he's a pretty straight shooter. In fact he used to be a MAH dealer before switching over. Now he also sells Bransons too. Maybe LS is using smaller hydraulic cylinders on their backhoes?

But anyway, I just thought I would put that out. I can see both sides of the issue. If you have a failure in one system it won't contaminate the other system if the backhoe is PTO driven. But if your tractor has an adequate hydraulic system why not use it for the backhoe and save money/resources re-inventing the wheel. Just make sure you have an adequate filtering system. B.

 

[Wile E Kioti]

LtCheg, an excellent point by you...thanks. B., thanks for sharing the information you received about BH's, interesting indeed. I am a complete novice so this may not make any sense, but this is what I take from your discussions- both are correct, depending on their individual point of view. I suspect that the MF dealer was speaking to the differences between a CUT vs. dedicated BH (excavator?) and the LS dealer was speaking to CUT's in general. One might have been suggesting that the CUT BH is under-powered, i.e., under-performs in comparison, and the other wasn't comparing apples to oranges...just speaking to the capabilities of the CUT BH,, such as they are.

 

[wolftree]

Wile,

Sticking with a tractor manufacturers backhoe will allows you to finance through the manufacturer. Going with a aftermarket, you will probably need your own (bank) financing.

 

[Reg]

This has been interesting. And this info might be a little off topic, but I think it's still in the ballpark. I was at a local MF/MAH dealer looking at tractors about six weeks ago. The sales man told me that CUT's don't have enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. Which caused me pause. He actually told me that backhoe's on CUT's are PTO powered with their own hydraulic systems.

However, when I was at the LS dealer (different dealer just so you know) the business owner told me that LS tractors have more than enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. I have known the LS business dealer for many years and he's a pretty straight shooter. In fact he used to be a MAH dealer before switching over. Now he also sells Bransons too. Maybe LS is using smaller hydraulic cylinders on their backhoes?

But anyway, I just thought I would put that out. I can see both sides of the issue. If you have a failure in one system it won't contaminate the other system if the backhoe is PTO driven. But if your tractor has an adequate hydraulic system why not use it for the backhoe and save money/resources re-inventing the wheel. Just make sure you have an adequate filtering system. B.

The two parameters of hydraulic "power" are pressure and flow rate.
Not directly related, but you can think of pressure as affecting force and flow as affecting speed.
Professional hoe operators want/need lots of both for productivity reasons - and they have the skills to use all they can get.
Many/most casual users (such as myself) with occasional projects that don't have to be done very quickly can get by very well on just adequate pressure, i.e. we aren't too worried about saving fractions of seconds with every swing of the boom (-:
My 8 1/2 ft Amerequip hoe (re-badged) on my little 42 HP Kukje tractor runs fast enough for what I do with the engine not much above a fast idle, rarely above 1500 RPM.
For full on heavy hoe work a separate PTO driven pump and tank may be justified, for me and most other casual users it is not.
It is something that could be added later if you discover that your particular tractor's hydraulics overheat under your particular conditions doing your particular projects.

BTW Amerequip is one of the OEM manufacturers that you could finish up with if you buy tractor manufacturer x, y, or z's color coordinated back-hoe.
About all you get is the color match and a sub frame modified to fit the particular tractor's underguts, i.e. the holes for attachment pins will be in the right places.
I wouldn't worry about hydraulic fluid cross contamination, the hoe is just a few more hydraulic cylinders.

 

[Wile E Kioti]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I placed the order today and went with the Kioti TLB. See the Kioti forum FMI. Thanks again.

 

[jim_wilson]

This has been interesting. And this info might be a little off topic, but I think it's still in the ballpark. I was at a local MF/MAH dealer looking at tractors about six weeks ago. The sales man told me that CUT's don't have enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. Which caused me pause. He actually told me that backhoe's on CUT's are PTO powered with their own hydraulic systems.

However, when I was at the LS dealer (different dealer just so you know) the business owner told me that LS tractors have more than enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. I have known the LS business dealer for many years and he's a pretty straight shooter. In fact he used to be a MAH dealer before switching over. Now he also sells Bransons too. Maybe LS is using smaller hydraulic cylinders on their backhoes?

But anyway, I just thought I would put that out. I can see both sides of the issue. If you have a failure in one system it won't contaminate the other system if the backhoe is PTO driven. But if your tractor has an adequate hydraulic system why not use it for the backhoe and save money/resources re-inventing the wheel. Just make sure you have an adequate filtering system. B.

I used to have a Kubota BX23 (Sub-compact) - the backhoe on that was powered by the built in pump on the tractor.

I now have a Kubota B3200 (Compact) - that has a Kubota BH77 hoe on it. That one is also powered by the built in hydraulics on the tractor.

The salesman is wrong.

It's possible that there might be some tractors out there that do not have sufficient hydraulic flow and pressure to properly power the size hoe that the tractor frame might support. But just about every tractor I've seen in the last 5-10 years - has sufficient hydraulic power from it's onboard pump - to power any appropriately sized hoe you might want to add to that tractor.

Older tractors - might be different.

 

[DavesTractor]

This has been interesting. And this info might be a little off topic, but I think it's still in the ballpark. I was at a local MF/MAH dealer looking at tractors about six weeks ago. The sales man told me that CUT's don't have enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. Which caused me pause. He actually told me that backhoe's on CUT's are PTO powered with their own hydraulic systems.

However, when I was at the LS dealer (different dealer just so you know) the business owner told me that LS tractors have more than enough hydraulic power to run a backhoe. I have known the LS business dealer for many years and he's a pretty straight shooter. In fact he used to be a MAH dealer before switching over. Now he also sells Bransons too. Maybe LS is using smaller hydraulic cylinders on their backhoes?

But anyway, I just thought I would put that out. I can see both sides of the issue. If you have a failure in one system it won't contaminate the other system if the backhoe is PTO driven. But if your tractor has an adequate hydraulic system why not use it for the backhoe and save money/resources re-inventing the wheel. Just make sure you have an adequate filtering system. B.

I wouldn't buy anything from that salesman....he is so wrong on many levels. A backhoe properly designed works well with the hydraulics available. We sell the dickens out of CUT tractors with backhoes and they work great. Of course if a guy is used to running a 60,000 lb $300k excavator he might think a small backhoe is useless, but give him a shovel and a wheel barrow and a ditch to dig he'll change his tune.

I know the OP has already made a decision, but I think it is wise to go with the OEM backhoe as long as it meets your needs and is not stupid expensive. The OEM backhoe on a 3016 Mahindra is USA made in Kansas, performs very well and is high quality. There are aftermarket backhoes that are on par +/- with the OEM unit as far as quality and performance, but they generally are not cheaper. They also do not enjoy as good of financing normally, and there is always the issue if a big failure happens to the tractor, like a busted or cracked housing. A tractor manufacturer spends a small fortune doing destructive testing before they approve a sub-frame design, and therefore they stand behind it. But they will be quick to accuse the aftermarket backhoe if they feel it caused an issue. The aftermarket mfg will point back to the tractor OEM, and you are stuck in between. It's not worth it if the aftermarket backhoe is about the same price with about the same performance.

 

[newbury]

If you go with a aftermarket you could change it to another tractor more easily by buying a different subframe.

Yup, what he said, and you might not need a subframe.

Well I'm a little late to this thread but look at the specs.

When I bought my B7610 (18HP at PTO) the only backhoe Kubota offered was a B4672, and the dealer tried to talk me into a Woods BH6000. Both have a maximum 6' reach. I'm 6 foot two and that wouldn't do. So I bought a Woods BH70X. It hauls my little B7610 around like a toy, and digs a foot deeper. I wanted to be able to dig a hole I couldn't see out of. My B7610 meets the minimum PTO requirement.

The BH70X also has about twice the Dipperstick Digging Force and 50% more Bucket Digging Force, thus a LOT stronger backhoe.

I had envisioned getting a 40HP tractor with about 35HP PTO and needing a new subframe but that didn't work out.

However Woods tells me for about $300 I can get a bracket (no subframe needed) to attach it to my M4700. It's on the small side, my M4700 puts out 42HP PTO, but I'll probably do it next year.

I know if I had gotten either the B4672 or BH6000 I'd be needing a bigger backhoe.

 

[DavesTractor]

The backhoe doesn't care about the sub-frame. It'll dig like mad on the three-point and all will be well as long as the three-point and the tractor chassis will handle the stresses. Many folks get by fine with a three-point backhoe, but we have seen a few of them inflict serious damage to the tractor. I think that is why most all tractor companies spec out sub-frames. If they felt a three-point mount was good, they would do it that way and have a competitive price advantage by going that route. Kubota used to spec out three-point backhoes I believe, but I see all their new stuff has sub-frames. And I believe the older Kubota 3-point backhoes had some sort of reinforcement system added to the tractor to help with the load when a backhoe was installed.

10 years ago we sold 4 of the three-point backhoes on 3 different brands of compact tractors. Within a year, two of them failed through the bell housing. 4 years later a third one failed. As far as I know the 4th one is still working. I have a dealer friend that has sold dozens of 3-point backhoes without any serious failures. Luck of the draw perhaps, but it made us gun shy and we implemented a sub-frame only backhoe policy. I question that policy occasionally when we see someone using a 3-point backhoe without any problems, but it is so expensive to replace a transmission housing.....It's a gamble, many win, some lose.

That is a good point about a 3-point backhoe being more "portable" as it can be setup easily for various tractors. A small backhoe on the 3-point of a large tractor would probably be a safe bet. A large backhoe on the 3-point of a small tractor is a real risk.