Welding 1/4" steel- Mig or stick?

[Dargo]

he who types the loudest,...

I am willing to bet my dad yelled the loudest! Does that count?

 

[AlanB]

Simple stick gives more penetration than mig, and thus is stronger.

And someone made a comment about a mig laying more metal. Not! There is an old thread in the hobart forum of a guy repairing a giant press weight or something. Had to cut part of it out then fill the gap. Huge amout of weight. The welding rods were something like 3/4" thick. Talk about laying some metal. No girly mig there.

I did a quick search but could not find it.

Rob, normally I would let sleeping dogs lie, but both those statements are just totally inaccurate.

Stick, Mig, more or less penetration comes from a variety of parameters from the machine, to the operator and obviously too the settings. Both Mig and Stick processes are capable of producing penetration.

As too the laying in of metal, there are numerous studies done to show that you lay more metal with Mig. They are repeatedly done by both manufacturers and welding equipment suppliers and when it comes time to lay down metal, MIG is the winner hands down.

I cannot remember the numbers, but the latest Memco news had a study on a guy doing mining equipment and they had a breakdown there of speed and deposition rates. I about fell over when they showed how much metal they laid down over a 12 hour shift.

 

[Sully2]

Simple stick gives more penetration than mig, and thus is stronger.

And someone made a comment about a mig laying more metal. Not! There is an old thread in the hobart forum of a guy repairing a giant press weight or something. Had to cut part of it out then fill the gap. Huge amout of weight. The welding rods were something like 3/4" thick. Talk about laying some metal. No girly mig there.

I did a quick search but could not find it.

Well..you waded in with your perception of what has been said and are WRONG on both posts!

1) If you can read..you will see that I NEVER SAID that I CANT strike an arc using AC..I stated MY PREFERENCE is DC and a 7XXX series stick for "ease" of use.

2)The statement that "stick gives more penetration than a wire fed machine can" is also erronious. Thats not to say that it CANT...but depth of pentration isnt directly related tio the PROCESS...many other things enter into it.

3) To state that stick lays more metal that a wire fed welder is able to ( BTW..I see many refer to using a wire fed machine as MIG...which leads me to belive you dont know the difference!!) is also erronious.

The comparison of using a "hobbiest / small business" "MIG" ( for you people that dont know the difference) and a stick machine using 3/4 electrodes is about as close as comparing your wife's Honda to a rail dragster. Any stick machine using a "bazillion amps" ( and it would take mucho many to burn a 3/4" stick)..and a COMPARABLE wire fed machine using equivelant amperage and wire speeds of "300-700 inches per minute" ( now..go get your calculators out) which one do YOU think is going to lay more metal per minute / hour...DUHHH!!!!

Granted the largest wire fed machine doesnt use 3/4" wire....the largest Ive ever even seen uses wire about the same diameter as a typical wooden pencil...the last time I looked...300 inches a minute laid more wire than two 14" long sticks per minute..???

 

[Sully2]

Rob, normally I would let sleeping dogs lie, but both those statements are just totally inaccurate.

Stick, Mig, more or less penetration comes from a variety of parameters from the machine, to the operator and obviously too the settings. Both Mig and Stick processes are capable of producing penetration.

As too the laying in of metal, there are numerous studies done to show that you lay more metal with Mig. They are repeatedly done by both manufacturers and welding equipment suppliers and when it comes time to lay down metal, MIG is the winner hands down.

I cannot remember the numbers, but the latest Memco news had a study on a guy doing mining equipment and they had a breakdown there of speed and deposition rates. I about fell over when they showed how much metal they laid down over a 12 hour shift.

Alan: I think you will find a certain group on the BB here that if YOU didnt learn the way they did...which appears to have been over a campfire..using 2 rocks to pound red hot metal together...then YOU are in the wrong. They have the equipment they have..they work on stuff they have and no other method or principal can even come close ( just ask them)

 

[Sully2]

That's my whole point... instead of learning proper technique and what to do when and with what, instead he went out and bought a different and more expensive machine to solve the "problem", still none the wiser, and now is advising others on what to do based on his "experience" of what is required to achieve success.

A beginner giving out bad advice to other beginners... I'm sorry, but that just isn't right... it's not the right thing to do.

But hey, I know how it is here on TBN... he who types the loudest, with the most buzz words and the most posts is perceived as the smartest, usually. So be it. His advice to all is worth what everyone here has paid for it...

Like I said, I'll step in the mud, but I'm not going to get down and roll around in it. I've got better things to do, and it isn't my money.

Once again I find another person unable to READ!

I had no one to teach me "proper technique" my whole life. Once I DID go to night school to learn..I learned that for ME the easierst by far was using DC and 7XXX series rods ( for stick welding)..but I ALSO LEARNED that using a wire fed machine was MUCH EASIER for "me"..for many reasons.

The "expense" of the machine didnt matter to me one iota because I wanted a machine I could easily practice on in the beginning ( my HH140_ and then later one much larger ( HH210) that I could do more serious welding with.

A "beginner" no...a person without a lot of welding background and experience...Yes!

And IMHO anyone on TBN that thinks that I'M the "smartest" in my opinion is dumber in the head than a hog is in the A**. Ive never stated I am / was..and if YOU think that...you fit the preceding catagory.

My advice being worth what someone paid for it...??..maybe it helped someone...but where was YOUR ADVICE in this thread...( duhhh...NONE)..all you have accomplished is to run yoru MOUTH and make an attempt to run me personally down. Thats been real helpful..hasnt it?

But you did say one thing truthful at least...IT ISNT YOUR MONEY and I seriously doubt if you even own a wire fed machine????

 

[oldron]

After reading all of this I think I will bolt the damb thing together.

 

[RobJ]

Rob, normally I would let sleeping dogs lie, but both those statements are just totally inaccurate.

Stick, Mig, more or less penetration comes from a variety of parameters from the machine, to the operator and obviously too the settings. Both Mig and Stick processes are capable of producing penetration.

As too the laying in of metal, there are numerous studies done to show that you lay more metal with Mig. They are repeatedly done by both manufacturers and welding equipment suppliers and when it comes time to lay down metal, MIG is the winner hands down.

I cannot remember the numbers, but the latest Memco news had a study on a guy doing mining equipment and they had a breakdown there of speed and deposition rates. I about fell over when they showed how much metal they laid down over a 12 hour shift.

Then why is stick still used at all? Especially on the important stuff? I can dig that stick into some 1" solid bar, can't dig an .035 or .045 wire into anything.

 

[RobJ]

Well..you waded in with your perception of what has been said and are WRONG on both posts!

Dude take a chill pill! I said what he said was funny, could have been directed at me!! Just a funny line. hehe

But hey, If I have any questions on using a DC stick welder using 7018 rods only...I'm coming to you!!! I use about 5 different rods. The 7018ac rods I have don't work that well(cuz you know they make AC and DC rods right?)

Now relax, I'm just kidding!!

 

[AlanB]

Then why is stick still used at all? Especially on the important stuff? I can dig that stick into some 1" solid bar, can't dig an .035 or .045 wire into anything.

Not sure if the smiley face mean's you are just being funny and it is a rhetorical question, but I would imagine that there are some reading that would want to know.

So, Why stick over Mig?

Here is my take on the matter as to why stick.

dollar for dollar, and especially for the home shop, a good stick will give you more capabilities then MIG. There is usually a breaking point, that is reached much quicker in the home shop financially where a good standard stick welder can go an awful long ways, and repair a lot of things, and fabricate tons of things for less money and in some ways "quicker" (notice the quotes, there are lots of caveats to that statement) that is the primary domain of the Stick welder in todays market (IMO)

If I was reccomending a welder to a guy to repair farm equipment, no welding experience, has a small tractor and some implements and wants to fabricate some odds and ends, a lincoln Tombstone AC welder or similar is what I would point him too. Minimum investment, wide capability, easy to understand and generally easy to operate, if bought used can almost always recoup your money later, has the ability to easily switch between rods and there is an amazing variety of rods available for that machine. I am not a big proponent of the need that is constantly espoused here for the DC machines. Yes, they are better, but my feelings for the average guy out there working on tractors the AC rods available right now will produce more then satisfactory results.

If the guy came to me and said he wanted to do body work on his car, I would ask if he planned on touching frames or hitches or nerf bars etc. If he said no, I would point him towards a 110 Mig.

If he said yes, I would point him towards either a bigger Mig, (220 v) or I would point him to two machines, 110 Mig and an AC buzz Box.

So, I have wandered a bit. Pointy answer

Why is stick used at all? Dollar for dollar you can get going cheaper, and more quickly change between materials and weld properties on a Stick.

As to the second part of digging a stick into 1" bar.

If you have a machine capable of feeding .045 wire, and you cannot turn it up to get too spray transfer, something is wrong with your machine.

I think one of the things that happens in these discussions is folks get using the terms for types of welding (stick, mig etc.) and applying that term to "their" welder, not thinking that it is not really what they mean.

For example at my house, if you said you were going to mig something together, you could do it with a MM 130 (110v machine) a MM 250 (220V machine) or you could do it with a Trailblazer pushing a MM suitcase. Not that I have tried it, but I think the Trailblazer with the suitcase and .045 wire could turn a 1" bar into a molten glob, where the MM 130 would dance around on the surface.

I guess one other thought I would add would be that many people will tell you the machine's "max" capacity, but that is really in a perfect setting, and all too often, we are not operating there. Sure, you can bevel, preheat, grind out, backgas purge, etc. etc. and that is all done in industry but very seldom done by the average backyard joe trying to get his middle buster stuck back together in the back yard.

 

[Dargo]

I dunno if there are 3/4" rods. There may be, but I've never seen such an animal nor heard of one. Welding 1" wear plate (basically the same stuff as armor plating) we used 1/2" rods with "0" size leads. That buzz was enough to pretty well vibrate my brain (huh, maybe that's the problem ). Although I didn't do any work there, I did visit a shipyard in Newport News and the biggest electrodes they used there were also 1/2" ones, but most work was done with the biggest MIGs I've ever seen. The "wire" spools looked like they weighed 500 pounds or so!

Either way, I don't really think either is needed to weld 1/4" steel. To be honest, I personally wouldn't use a 120 volt machine to weld 1/4" stuff if it really needed a good weld. I do have a small 120 volt machine but I just use it for portable reasons on 1/8" stuff or smaller. Any decent 220 volt stick or wire fed machine would work just fine with 1/4" stuff. I generally use my Miller 250 MIG for most things, but if my Hobart buzz box is close and I have rods, I'll use it without any thought. I actually use both machines on stainless as well, but pretty well only use TIG on aluminum.