Welding 1/4" steel- Mig or stick?

[canoetrpr]

I decided to bite the bullet and get a basic AC/DC stick setup when after getting 2 other simple jobs done by a local welder, the welds on my landscape rake's guage wheels decided to come apart.

It is a hassle having to depend on someone else for something that you could easily take care of yourself. In the long term I have no clue if this will be a money saving approach as the welder was only one expense, grinders rods, the auto darkening helmet, welding table, bandsaw etc. etc. have probably added up to as much as the $400 I paid for the welder ;-). I imagine it will pay for itself with a few repairs.

Like bjcsc, I don't need to build anything really critical. Just need to be able to to fix / fabricate the small stuff around any farm that needs to be done.

 

[johnk]

I decided to bite the bullet and get a basic AC/DC stick setup when after getting 2 other simple jobs done by a local welder, the welds on my landscape rake's guage wheels decided to come apart.

It is a hassle having to depend on someone else for something that you could easily take care of yourself. In the long term I have no clue if this will be a money saving approach as the welder was only one expense, grinders rods, the auto darkening helmet, welding table, bandsaw etc. etc. have probably added up to as much as the $400 I paid for the welder ;-). I imagine it will pay for itself with a few repairs.

Like bjcsc, I don't need to build anything really critical. Just need to be able to to fix / fabricate the small stuff around any farm that needs to be done.

It's always nice to own your own "Stuff". Makes you feel independant plus after borrowing something you don't feel obligated to pay back..The smile on your face will be worth the initial cost when you strike the first arc.. You'll probably be waiting for things to break so you can fix em!! Have fun with it..

 

[Sully2]

I decided to bite the bullet and get a basic AC/DC stick setup when after getting 2 other simple jobs done by a local welder, the welds on my landscape rake's guage wheels decided to come apart.

It is a hassle having to depend on someone else for something that you could easily take care of yourself. In the long term I have no clue if this will be a money saving approach as the welder was only one expense, grinders rods, the auto darkening helmet, welding table, bandsaw etc. etc. have probably added up to as much as the $400 I paid for the welder ;-). I imagine it will pay for itself with a few repairs.

Like bjcsc, I don't need to build anything really critical. Just need to be able to to fix / fabricate the small stuff around any farm that needs to be done.

Im with ya 100%. I had to wait 2 full weeks to get 2 lousy hooks welded on my FEL...simply becase the guy was busy. I had no welder at the time and no experience. Now..if a small job comes along the only thing that will stop me is RAIN...because I have to work outside.

BTW....IMHO you bought a good welder for doing the jopbs you need done

 

[Sully2]

.... but they look good and they don't fail and that's pretty much what I need them to do...

Thats 99.9% of whats required.

 

[IslandManMitch]

OK canoetrpr.
You asked for my 2 cents worth so here it is. Apples to apples MIG is superior to stick in most applications. MIG is easier for most people to use. Yeah I know there are those who say it ain't so but I have taught people to weld for the past 25 years and MIG is easier for them to learn. With stick the number one problem for a beginner is striking the arc. Then you have to get the correct rod angle. The right arc length. Then feed the rod into the puddle at the right speed while keeping the puddle correct. You do the same with MIG except you don't strike the arc and the machine feeds the wire for you.Two less problems for a beginner how can it be harder? We use to joke you could teach a monkey to MIG weld if it wasn't for PETA. MIG is faster. Yeah I know your cousins wife's brothers son knows this guy who is greased lightning with a stick. Go to a real "production" shop and see what they use. I think one poster said they fabricated sections of pipe with MIG in the shop and then stick welded it in the field. That is a common practice which brings up the advantages of stick. With MIG you need the machine close to the work and I mean within 15' max. My Lincoln 250 portable had 300' of lead. Try dragging a MIG 60' up a column to weld off some bar joist. The stick will reach into hard to reach places. I can take a rod and weld dirty metal that I would not try with MIG. Rods are easier to store. Cheaper to buy in small quantities. Larger selection. Stick machines are cheaper for equal performance.
In skilled hands MIG or stick produce the same quality of welds.
Take a VoTec welding class.
Buy the best machine you can afford/justify.
If it is cheap go stick. If you got the bucks and can get close to your clean job get MIG.
Don't get hung up on how thick of metal it will weld in one pass. I never certified on 1/4" or thicker with one pass. Root pass, fillet pass and a cap?
DO NOT WELD on anything that may cause death or injury if the weld fails. Leave that to the pro's until you are a pro.
I use to say "I am a master manipulator of molten metal. I can weld anything from a broken heart to the crack of dawn. If I can step across it I can weld it. Give me a meat rod and I'll weld a mad grizzly's mouth shut." Now with age I know I may have had trouble with the grizzly?
I hope this helps, Mitch

 

[ray66v]

Yeah I know there are those who say it ain't so but I have taught people to weld for the past 25 years and MIG is easier for them to learn.

Is there any doubt that mig is easier to learn???

 

[canoetrpr]

Mitch - thanks for the post. I particularly like the monkey part .

What would you say is a reasonble sized (output) mig machine to tackle jobs in the 1/4 to 3/8" range? - you know, stuff around a tractor.

I've got only about 5 hrs total time under my belt on my AC/DC stick. I'm having a blast at it and I have gotten better. Out of position welds still look like #$%^. Around a tractor / implements, I do need to get decent out of position welds cause I can't just bring stuff up onto the welding table. Need to weld it where it is. Sticking the 'stick' (thats why it is called stick right? ) is still irritating and it takes me to at least burn a few sticks each session before I get half decent at striking the arc and not sticking more than I am welding. I can see how mig would help a beginner substantially for these types of reasons.

From a beginners perspective, I've only just started doing joints and I really don't mind doing a couple of passes. I sorta like the idea of not having to clean so much after welding with a mig as well

I've been bouncing the idea around of getting a mig if I get a good deal on a used machine but they seem darn expensive compared to stick machines - at least anything in the 200+ amp range. I might sell or keep my stick machine if I do. Not sure. I bet I'll get pretty much what I paid for it around here which is why I jumped on it when I saw it.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I have read this whole string also and decided to give my 2 cents worth. I now work as a quality manager and see a lot of good and bad welding in the heavy construction arena. As a former certified pipe welder on just about everything from SMAW, TIG, MIG, FCAW and SAW and with welding everything from Carbon Steel to Zirconium and Titanium, I can honestly say that I also know a thing or two about welding. First of all, it helps to have reference to a good welding procedure which will define some parameters for the welder, like type of rod to use on different alloys rather than as mentioned her, just use a 7018. Secondly you need a machine that will provide the current and voltage necessary to make the rod or wire melt at the correct rate and heat input. Contrary to some comments, sometimes more heat input is not the best even though it may make the welding seem easier. TOO much heat can cause embrittlement of the weld just as lack of preheat on high tensile steel will also cause embrittlement. A good book on welding knowledge can be found from Lincoln Electric which will cover much of the metallurgy knowlege and set up of your machines.
Basically the machine that you want to purchase is whatever your wallet can afford that will give your the most power while not wiping out your bank account. THe duty cycle is what you need to look at and the voltage or current (amps) that your think you will be using. Most of the 110v transformer style machines will only give you the necessary output to make a decent weld for 10% duty cycle or about 2-3 minutes of welding before the overload will kick in. Heavy duty machines will have at least a 70% duty cycle. So if you dont have time to wait around while the transformer coils cool, then get a larger 220 Volt machine. BTW: 110 Volt Inverter technologyh starts around $1000 for a 140 amp stick machine so that is out for most folks. There are advantages in both stick and MIG/ FCAW. Even with FCAW, to get a really good weld, you should still use a shielding gas. The gas while not terrible expensive (the bottle purchase is quite expensive)is still additional cost above a stick. I cant see any 110 V welding with anything bigger than .030 wire and even then it taxes the load on them. MIG is definitely easier to use when properly set up, however if improperly set, one can apply more bird droppings in 30 seconds than you can grind off in 30 minutes. With stick, at least you will look at your work about every 3 minutes as you change rods.
I would never sell my stick machine just because I purchase a MIG. They both have their place in the construction or farm repair business.
THere is too much to cover here, but if anyone wants to discuss further, just drop me a private message and I will be happy to cover any item in more detail.

 

[Sully2]

.... BTW: 110 Volt Inverter technologyh starts around $1000 for a 140 amp stick machine so that is out for most folks. There are advantages in both stick and MIG/ FCAW. Even with FCAW, to get a really good weld, you should still use a shielding gas. The gas while not terrible expensive (the bottle purchase is quite expensive)is still additional cost above a stick. I cant see any 110 V welding with anything bigger than .030 wire and even then it taxes the load on them. MIG is definitely easier to use when properly set up, however if improperly set, one can apply more bird droppings in 30 seconds than you can grind off in 30 minutes. With stick, at least you will look at your work about every 3 minutes as you change rods.
I would never sell my stick machine just because I purchase a MIG. They both have their place in the construction or farm repair business.
...

Hobart HH140 ( runs off 120 AC) costs right at $450. Able to do 1/8" material and up to 3/16th actually. Advertised to be able to do 1/4"...but I wouldnt count on it

Shielding gas with FCAW IS NOT NEEDED unless you are specifically buying "dual shield " wire..and thats the reason why fluxcore was created. Out of doors shielding gas is typically a JOKE and gets blown away

 

[Sully2]

Mitch - thanks for the post. I particularly like the monkey part .

What would you say is a reasonble sized (output) mig machine to tackle jobs in the 1/4 to 3/8" range? - you know, stuff around a tractor.

I've got only about 5 hrs total time under my belt on my AC/DC stick. I'm having a blast at it and I have gotten better. Out of position welds still look like #$%^. Around a tractor / implements, I do need to get decent out of position welds cause I can't just bring stuff up onto the welding table. Need to weld it where it is. Sticking the 'stick' (thats why it is called stick right? ) is still irritating and it takes me to at least burn a few sticks each session before I get half decent at striking the arc and not sticking more than I am welding. I can see how mig would help a beginner substantially for these types of reasons.

From a beginners perspective, I've only just started doing joints and I really don't mind doing a couple of passes. I sorta like the idea of not having to clean so much after welding with a mig as well

I've been bouncing the idea around of getting a mig if I get a good deal on a used machine but they seem darn expensive compared to stick machines - at least anything in the 200+ amp range. I might sell or keep my stick machine if I do. Not sure. I bet I'll get pretty much what I paid for it around here which is why I jumped on it when I saw it.

Wire fed machines to do 1/4" single pass arent too bad. BUT...to do 3/8" thickness..single pass...you are looking at ( if used) a Hobart Ironman 250 or a Miller 250 and their used prices are right at $1200 ( New the new Miller 252 is close to $1600...but talk about a real "smoker..wow!)
I can do 1/4" single pass with my Hobart HH210..and they are ( new) right at $850

Are you using DC and still sticking rods?? Thats all I can do with AC...but isng DC I dont have that problem.

If I ) me) owned the maching you already have..and wanted a MIG also...??...Id keep your machine for the BIG stuff..and use something akin to the HH140 I have for thinner materials...where even with a small diameter stick you are burning thru too easily. With 75/25 gas..and .024 wire...you can MIG sheetmetal to beat the band..I mean like QUICK