What does horsepower actually mean?

   / What does horsepower actually mean? #31  
I believe electric motors are the same way. Locked Rotor Torque is its max. Above that, it drops off. If you ever do the calculations, electric motors up to speed dont really produce much torque.

For example, a 5HP 3400RPM motor like found on most air compressors is only generating~7.5 ft lbs of torque:confused2: heck, most torque wrenches dont even go that low. 7.5ft lbs isnt even enough to break a lousy 1/4" drive china ratchet.

But look at how much torque they have at start-up. Probabally more than enough to snap a good 3/4" drive tool:confused2:

Its all based on the formula of: torque = (HP x 5252)/RPM So the lower the RPM, torque goes up BIG TIME. At least until the winding burn up:laughing:


If folks look at the torque curves from Nema A through Nema D, they will get a good idea. Nema D may have something like 3 times running torque during a locked rotor state. I tried to upload a document on this, but it is too large. I know of no typical 5HP electric motor that will challenge a 3/4" drive tool.
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #32  
I know of no typical 5HP electric motor that will challenge a 3/4" drive tool.

Possibly. I dont have any facts to prove either way because I have never tried it and dont ever plan to. Just making a point that electric motors have way more torque at lower rpm's.

But what I CAN tell you is that I have seen a 5hp electric motor twist a 3/4" round shaft clean in two. (yea, a good 3/4" tool is probabally a little stronger, but you get the idea). It was on a pump direct drive from the motor. Bearings in the pump locked up. Input shaft of the pump was 3/4 and the motor was 1-1/8. Pump had been sitting for awhile and no-one thought to check if it was free before turning the motor on. Pump was NOT free, and motor won:mad:
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #33  
Possibly. I dont have any facts to prove either way because I have never tried it and dont ever plan to. Just making a point that electric motors have way more torque at lower rpm's.

But what I CAN tell you is that I have seen a 5hp electric motor twist a 3/4" round shaft clean in two. (yea, a good 3/4" tool is probabally a little stronger, but you get the idea). It was on a pump direct drive from the motor. Bearings in the pump locked up. Input shaft of the pump was 3/4 and the motor was 1-1/8. Pump had been sitting for awhile and no-one thought to check if it was free before turning the motor on. Pump was NOT free, and motor won:mad:


If I don't see a failure like that happen directly, I assume the pump locked up catastrophically, and the momentum of the motor rotor plus the torque was applied directly to the shaft. Startup torque for that motor is not enough to ring that shaft. Naturally, I have not seen all motors and all installations, I am just saying what I know about all the practical motors I have seen over the years.
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #34  
If I don't see a failure like that happen directly, I assume the pump locked up catastrophically, and the momentum of the motor rotor plus the torque was applied directly to the shaft. Startup torque for that motor is not enough to ring that shaft. Naturally, I have not seen all motors and all installations, I am just saying what I know about all the practical motors I have seen over the years.

Pump was stopped. Failure happened at start-up. Now it is possible that it there was a "little" lash, like maybe 1/2 a revolution before it seized, IDK. I wasnt there first hand. All I know is what they told me happened when they flipped the disconnect on, and ofcourse I saw the aftermath. They said it broke as soon as they turned it on. So it isnt like it got up to speed and then locked up.

Edit: Trying to inject a little humor here........

I bet If I had a team of 5 horses (5HP) pulling on a 3/4" drive ratchet, I bet they could bust it:D
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #35  
Somewhere from the distant libraries of my old mind something says that a piston steam engine has maximum torque at zero rpm!

It has maximum torque @ mid stroke and maximum pressure (stalled).

Electric motors have a Full Load Amps (FLA) rating which is locked rotor amps.
When you reach FLA (stall) you have maximum torque.

Horsepower is a derived unit. It is just a measurement of power.
A unit of work done per a unit of time is a measurement of power.
An average horse was observed to be able to do 550pound-feet
of work per second, or 33000lb-ft/min, or 746 watts.

1 watt = 1 joule/second. 1 watt-hour = 3600 joules.
Watt is a unit of power. Watt-Hour is a unit of energy.
Horsepower is a unit of power. Joule is a unit of energy

Take the horse out of it and it makes the math a lot simpler.

Pooh Bear
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #36  
:cool:A lot of good posts above but I'd like to add a bit on a different tack.
The designers of Engines and the machines they power have to deal with the fact that engines have very narrow power curves. Gas engines are worse on this then diesels as has been described above but the gas engines power to weight ratio is much better so you are never going to see a diesel airplane.
Consider your average car or light truck engine. it really begins to build power at around 2000 rpm and after 4000 rpm is wasting fuel and trying to tear itself apart. Get below 2000 rpm while under load and the engine will begin to lug, that is you can open the throttle wider and the engine won't increase rpms. Now having your tires spinning 2000 rpm would not be a good thing as tires ten feet in circumference turning at that speed would have you going 227 miles an hour so they have stuck some gears in there to step it down some. First you have your rear end with say 3.75 gears which would drop you down to 61 mph at 2000 engine rpm, problem solved you say and sure enough many car transmissions pass through engine rpms directly to the drive shaft in their high or next to highest gear. But then we come to a hill. Now we are not only overcoming air and rolling resistance but raising the two ton truck several vertical feet per second (Work)plus doing what we were doing before. First we open the throttle and "give her all she's gut" but if the hill is steep enough we will start to slow down and the engine rpms will fall off towards a lugging condition. We shift down to a lower gear and if we leave the engine running at 2000 rpm we will proceed up the hill at a slower speed. What exact speed depends on the actual gear ratio. But what matters is we have divided the work that needs to be done by a speed and gear combo that lets the engine do it's work inside it's efficient power curve. Let the hill get steeper still and we will select an even lower gear or if we want to go just ten miles an hour drop to the lowest gear where we can start and stop the car using the clutch without stalling the engine.
Tractor gearing is a whole new set of numbers. Consider a rear tire that is six feet high. that gives you a circumference of eighteen point eight feet and just 4.68 rpm will give you one mile per hour so you need a little over 500/1 gear reduction between your 2400rpm diesel for your lowest gear. There are a lot more power strokes of the engine applied to each foot the tractor moves the implement.
Aircraft engines and motor cycles (and some lawn mowers) go the the other end of the calculation table, the plane can't shift down or it would fall out of the sky and the mower can't cut grass if it can't keep the blade tips up to speed.
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #37  
It has maximum torque @ mid stroke and maximum pressure (stalled).

Electric motors have a Full Load Amps (FLA) rating which is locked rotor amps.
When you reach FLA (stall) you have maximum torque.


Horsepower is a derived unit. It is just a measurement of power.
A unit of work done per a unit of time is a measurement of power.
An average horse was observed to be able to do 550pound-feet
of work per second, or 33000lb-ft/min, or 746 watts.

1 watt = 1 joule/second. 1 watt-hour = 3600 joules.
Watt is a unit of power. Watt-Hour is a unit of energy.
Horsepower is a unit of power. Joule is a unit of energy

Take the horse out of it and it makes the math a lot simpler.

Pooh Bear

Pooh Bear,
LRA does not equal FLA.
Max torque is frequently not at locked rotor, but later in the rpm range, frequently around 80% rpm.

Please look at torque charts for various Nema classes A through D if you get a chance.

Everyone, it is important to always remember that motor hp is at the shaft, not at the wire. Also, Pelec is not equal to Pmech. Looking at the Pmech equation at the locked rotor state

Pmech = Tau (torque in n-meters) * W (omega the radian velocity of the shaft.) We know that power is work per unit time, and that work is force through a distance, so we know in the locked rotor state that

0 = Tau * 0 therefore we cannot use the power mechanical equation all the way down to locked rotor. Instead, we have to rely on the motor class information to know the mechanical torque, or we must measure it directly.

We cannot substitute Pelec for Pmech without remembering that we know for a fact that Pelec and Pmech cannot be the same since Pmech is known to be zero because the shaft is not turning, and we know that Pelec is likely NOT zero if the motor is powered up. Therefore substituting one for the other is not helpful. And even if we were to try to do so, using amps is not a good substitute, since Pmech is REAL power, and Pelec is meant to be real electric power, but most folks only have access to apparent power measurements, not real. We know for a fact that amps is not an indication of real power in an AC system, and the power factor must be considered, and that efficiency must be considered too. Efficiency is off the charts bad at the locked rotor state, and that is what ruins the motor...it is being turned into a resistance and induction heater rather than a motor.

I find in practice that I must always use real power monitoring to have a clue about the applied mechanical power because up to 50% load, the power factor shifts severely more toward unity, making correlating amps to power (and therefore approximately torque as well) does not work very well. The entire lower torque range is obscured by power factor shift. But when I use real power monitoring it all falls into line...and I can set limits in the recipe to make the machine applies known amounts of mechanical power to the product being made.

I hope this is received well, and I hope I have not made any mistakes. I know what I am talking about I think, but sometimes I may not always be saying what I mean.

It is interesting to think of induction motors as rotary transformers. I used to design substation transformers, and I used to try to think of them as translational motors. They will not rotate in any case, but they would dearly love to translate. A 10 MVA transformer is pretty much like a 10MVA translational motor, but massive end frames and weldments are put into place to try to make the transformer NOT "run."* If you short the secondary, and ramp up the voltage in the primary until the secondary is carrying full load current, you have found the "impedance voltage" and comparing that voltage to full rated, you have the "% impedance voltage" or the %Z. In an induction motor, the primary would be the stator, and the secondary would be the rotor. You are providing far more voltage to the motor primary than is required to have rated amps in the rotor, and that is why there is a resistance and inductive heater being made out of a motor.

*Clearly, as a designer, I had no Nema class information to tell me how to design the bracing to keep the transformer intact. Instead, we had to go back to first principles. But as a former electric machine designer, I cannot go back to first principles on a motor of which I don't know all the design details. But folks using amps to indicate torque in a locked rotor state are attempting to do just that, when they ought to rely instead on Nema class and motor manufacturer data expositions.
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #39  
Not if you're looking at a power tool from Harbor Freight.:laughing:
Then a motor that draws 746 watts is a one HP motor; according to HF.

Pooh Bear

Well, since they are using the term "746 watts" they are close, neglecting only efficiency. :D
 
   / What does horsepower actually mean? #40  
the gas engines power to weight ratio is much better so you are never going to see a diesel airplane.

You haven't looked lately. :)

DeltaHawk Diesel Engines

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BhcIT2V1s]Diamond DA42 Twinstar Diesel Airplane - YouTube[/ame]
 
 
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