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  1. #1
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    Default Update on my Stickweld 250

    Update on my Stickweld 250

    Had another get together with Shield Arc so that he could further my skill enhancement with my Longevity Stickweld 250. Many months back he had previously worked with me on 7018.

    I had recently tried my hand at 6010 and was very dissatisfied with the results that I was getting. The problems that I was having could not be resolved via email and pictures. Shield Arc was trying to help but only in person could he really see what was happening. He also had wanted to experiment a bit more with the "arc force" on the Stickweld 250 since it seemed to work differently than he had been used to with other machines/inverters.

    I had been using Radnor 6010 1/8" and was not very happy with what I was getting. Shield Arc with his experience could remove my inconsistencies (of which there are many) and truly tell what was happening.

    What we/he discovered is that the Stickweld 250 does not really "like" several brands of rods in different types. Shield Arc had previously determined that Lincoln Excalibur 7018 runs very well on this machine and I have been using it. There were several other 7018 rods that had been tried and did not run near as well. He told me that his experience was that a lot of inverters (even very high end ones) did better with some brands than others.
    He tried the Radnor 6010 that I had been using (1/8") as well as 5/32" and was very unhappy with the results. He also tried ESAB 10P 6010 1/8" with very poor results as well. Lincoln 5P Plus 5/32" had a similar result. At this point he said that my Stickweld 250 did not run 6010 very well at all from what we were seeing.

    He then switched to Hobart 335A 1/8" 6011 and found that it ran a very acceptable weld. Not great like the Excalibur 7018 but acceptable. Having a very full stock of different welding rods he then tried Esab 10P Plus 1/8" 6010. That rod worked fantastic. It ran just as nice a 6010 weld as the Excalibur 7018 weld with the machine.

    I then tried the 6010 and it made every difference in the world even with my limited skill set I could do so much better just by using a different rod. As Shield Arc has told me before, "these inverters just seem to run some brands better than others and you just have to find the one that works for that machine." He experimented with the arc force more and basically decided 5-10 was the only range that was worth using on the unit.

    The one very interesting thing that we did find was amperage requirement. Shield Arc had been telling me from my reports to him of what I was using for amperage with the different rods, that I was running them WAY too hot. Of course the more I turned it down the worse the welds became. Today, he was amazed to find that even using the settings that I had been running that he thought it was too cold when he viewed the results in person.

    As an example using the Esab 10P Plus 6010 with his Lincoln V350-Pro he was using 45 amps less than with my Stickweld 250. This is just one example of very high amperage that was being used on my Stickweld 250 in order to get the temperature of the weld correct. Interesting several months ago 140 amps was quite acceptable with the Excalibur 7018 1/8" flat and today he was using 155 amps with 5 arc force on flat and 145 amps 10 arc force Vertical Up.

    Question that I have is there anyway these inverters can start to fail/degrade in such a way that the amperage displayed is not what is being used or that some other failure mode requires a higher amperage in order to compensate for the failing component? The machine seems to work very well as I put in my initial review many months back (if you use a rod that it seems to like) and I am very happy with it. For the price it is a fantastic little machine. I just question why I am having to run such high amperage in order to get the correct weld temperature.

  2. #2
    Elite Member Shield Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    I just PMed chuckE2009, (Lanse) on another site a link back to this thread. I would really like to get is opinion of the Stickweld 250! Seems as I read somewhere he has not tried 6010 yet with his machine. But hey, he may make a video of doing so!


    Miller Dynasty 300.
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  3. #3
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    Default

    If you look arround on Amazon, you should be able to find an AC/DC clamp on ampmeter for about $70.
    Then you can see if the displayed current is the same as the actual current.
    I did this with an Everlast and a Longevety welder and both were within 5% of the set current.
    Dan H.

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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    Furu - Nice update post. I wished Shieldarc lived closer to me, I could certainly use some over the shoulder training. Only live a few miles away from Lanse, but if he were to help me then I would likely appear in one of his videos (as comic relief). I have no interest in being in any videos.

    I agree that the brand of rod can be very important. I have zero experience with inverters, but rod brand can be equally as important on older transformer machines too (even more so if it is a machine with only tapped settings). Once you find a brand of rod for each particular type that works well with the welder you have (and with a setting that you actually have on your welder) then that brand is a keeper for your machine.

    In my limited experience, the brands will frequently not translate universally either across the board. What I mean by that is while I like Hobart 335A 6011 1/8" by far the best of any 6011 that I have ever used; it does does not mean that I prefer Hobart for all my other rod type choices.

  5. #5
    Elite Member Shield Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    Quote Originally Posted by rankrank1 View Post
    Only live a few miles away from Lanse, but if he were to help me then I would likely appear in one of his videos (as comic relief). I have no interest in being in any videos.
    I know what you mean. Don't know about you, but I have a face for radio!


    I know you're a very knowledgeable guy with the theory of welding, so I have a question for you. Why is it my SA-200s could care less what brand of rod you run with them? Now I truly believe my short hoods run 6010 better than my red face machines, but on the other hand my red face machines run 7018 better than the short hoods. I think it is the difference in engine RPM, where the short hoods run at a lower RPM.


    Miller Dynasty 300.
    Lincoln V350-Pro w/pulse.
    Lincoln LF-72 wire feeder.
    Lincoln SG Spool gun.

    Lincoln LN-25.
    1937 IdealArc-300.
    Everlast PowerArc 200.
    Everlast PowerArc 300.
    5 Lincoln SA-200s.
    1800 Ellis saw.
    Hypertherm Powermax 1250, CNC table.
    PROFAX Welding Positioner.
    JD2 model 3.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    Quote Originally Posted by Shield Arc View Post
    I know what you mean. Don't know about you, but I have a face for radio!


    I know you're a very knowledgeable guy with the theory of welding, so I have a question for you. Why is it my SA-200s could care less what brand of rod you run with them? Now I truly believe my short hoods run 6010 better than my red face machines, but on the other hand my red face machines run 7018 better than the short hoods. I think it is the difference in engine RPM, where the short hoods run at a lower RPM.
    Yep face made for radio for sure.

    Somewhat knowledgeable would be more accurate than very knowledgeable, but thanks for the compliment. As I have said many times though book knowledge does not translate to welding talent or skill at all (less than stellar eyesight does not help either).

    I have never been around a SA-200 that I know of anyway. My uncle had an engine drive welder back in the 1970's. Had a Wisconsin hand crank start engine on it that was a bugger for even the adults to start so it was rarely used. I was much too little back then to even try it.

    Anyway, Your assumption on engine rpm's could be valid in theory. Assuming the welding generator heads are otherwise identical and that both generator heads are directly driven off the engine crankshafts (no intermediate transmissions that alter ratios). Then the faster spinning engine will produce a DC waveform of a different frequency than the slower spinning engine.

    I will try to post some pics but had trouble on my 1st attempt.

    Slow spin engine
    -dcpic2-jpg

    Faster spin engine
    -2_16_0_11-png

    Assume the volt scale (vertical axis) and the time scale (horizontal axis) is the same on these two graph pics. In short, the faster spin engine has more waves in a given time so more time that voltage is at peak verses being closer to zero. In this overly simplistic example the ratio is 2 waves to 1 wave in the same amount of time. Remember this is all happening in milliseconds of time so the effect is not easily noticeable in real time that a human can perceive, but nonetheless does make slight differences in performance as you have observed.
    Last edited by rankrank1; 02-09-2013 at 03:58 PM.

  7. #7
    Elite Member Shield Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    Quote Originally Posted by rankrank1 View Post
    Somewhat knowledgeable would be more accurate than very knowledgeable, but thanks for the compliment. As I have said many times though book knowledge does not translate to welding talent or skill at all
    Well either way, I know you're more knowledgeable on the subject than I! I have no idea how they work, but generally I can make a welding machine do what I want it to.

    The SA-200's generators are direct drive to the engine. Only difference is the short hoods have 4-main settings, where as the red face machines have 5-main settings. But Both are 100% copper, and as about old school as it gets.
    It has to be the volt amp curve in these old generators.
    Now to add to the mix, my Dynasty 300 is a terrible SMAW machine.


    Miller Dynasty 300.
    Lincoln V350-Pro w/pulse.
    Lincoln LF-72 wire feeder.
    Lincoln SG Spool gun.

    Lincoln LN-25.
    1937 IdealArc-300.
    Everlast PowerArc 200.
    Everlast PowerArc 300.
    5 Lincoln SA-200s.
    1800 Ellis saw.
    Hypertherm Powermax 1250, CNC table.
    PROFAX Welding Positioner.
    JD2 model 3.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    Quote Originally Posted by Shield Arc View Post
    ....Now to add to the mix, my Dynasty 300 is a terrible SMAW machine.
    Yep many of those inverter based machines produce more of a "square" wave instead of a "sine" shape. The square waves can be quite advantageous and desirable for tig welding, but less than ideal for stick although they can still do it nonetheless (a compromise so to speak).

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    Quote Originally Posted by rankrank1 View Post
    Assume the volt scale (vertical axis) and the time scale (horizontal axis) is the same on these two graph pics. In short, the faster spin engine has more waves in a given time so more time that voltage is at peak verses being closer to zero. In this overly simplistic example the ratio is 2 waves to 1 wave in the same amount of time.
    Are the engines on welding generators different than those on general-purpose generators? By which I mean, my understanding is that 1800 rpm general-purpose generators have twice as many heads on the stator so as to produce the same frequency as 3600 rpm generators at half the rpms. I would have thought that welding generators were the same.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Update on my Stickweld 250

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuabardwell View Post
    Are the engines on welding generators different than those on general-purpose generators? By which I mean, my understanding is that 1800 rpm general-purpose generators have twice as many heads on the stator so as to produce the same frequency as 3600 rpm generators at half the rpms. I would have thought that welding generators were the same.
    I do not know the answer to that question and frankly too lazy to research it. As my theoretical analysis stated "assuming the welding generator heads are otherwise identical...". In short, I am assuming a SA-200 generator head is identical across the board in the above analysis.

    115v or 230 volt power producing generators are a totally different animal. Frequecy of the power (as well as the wave shape) being produced is important in a power production generator. It must be somewhat close to either 50 htz or 60htz (depending on country) or risk burning up electronics and motors in appliances.

    In a welding generator: the frequency does change the volt/amp amp curve which can be either a benefit or hindrance to achieving desired welding results depending on weld process, rod type, etc. but is not otherwise going to hurt or damage anything except give than desirable results. Sine, square, even dirty wave can be okay in welding.
    Last edited by rankrank1; 02-09-2013 at 05:04 PM.

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