Digging Out Cedar Tree Roots: Stump Bucket, Tooth Bar or Backhoe?

[Poopdeck Pappy]

I've got a bunch (hundreds) of cedar trees to knock down, some as large as 10" - 12". Most are 3" - 8". I want to dig out the roots enough that I can knock them over (without breaking the trunk) and haul them off with a grapple. I'm tractor shopping now (still!!!), and would appreciate the benefit of your experience as to which way is the best. The tractor will be somewhere around 45 - 50 HP (large compact tractor with HST).

I figure a backhoe would be the best option, but it's also the most expensive by far. I have no idea if a tooth bar or stump bucket will dig well enough to do the job or not, at least in a time efficient manner. (I don't want to work for hours on each cedar tree.)

My only point of reference is that I borrowed a Bobcat skid steer loader with a regular bucket on it. It will knock down the smaller ones (4" or so), but it keeps breaking the trunk. I need something to dig up some of the roots so I can knock the whole tree over. It takes a LONG time to do that with the standard bucket on the Bobcat.

 

[jeff9366]

While expensive, I think a backhoe is your best option.

With 100's to remove, renting an excavator is probably not a viable alternative.

There are various heterogeneous engineered bucket mounted and 3-Pt. mounted Tree Shears which I have seen here, which might work with a 45-50 HP tractor, but tree shears are pretty much one trick ponies, and expensive themselves.

A toothbar will be too slow, as you have already surmised.

Cedars usually grow in dry ground. Will you be digging in adobe?

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I've done a number of alders up to 12" on my place. Here they grow like weeds so it is a constant chore to thin them out and keep the fires burning. The cedars up here have a very extensive root system like the alders. Up to about 4" I can push alders over with my little BX25's FEL by setting the bucket at about 5' high and push, rips the roots right out and then push it around to break free from the soil. Cut off the roots and put the stump on the burn pile and the trunk in the wood lot, then chip the trash with my PTO chipper (later after removing the BH). Bigger; I use the BH W/8" bucket and dig a trench around and cut the roots with the BH teeth and ripping with the curl back. Piece of cake. Had a double trunk each 8" though that the BH would not lift out of the hole. So, dug a ramp and yanked it put with my Dodge 350. That one was a bear to work it to the top of the burn pile with the FEL. The mighty BX at work. 2-3 hours to do the big ones. Get the BH, it will save you a lot of frustration with the big bucket on the front of a 50hper and digging a big hole.

Ron

 

[Piston]

Pappy,
I'm not sure about the 12" trees regarding how extensive the root system would be, but for the majority of your cedars I think you'd be impressed with what the grapple alone will do. With the larger ones the trunk won't snap easily and you'll be able to push the tree over, stump and all, then push the stump/tree forward with the grapple and carry the whole shebang away!

Before spending money on a backhoe, try the grapple route since your buying one anyways. If the trunks still snap, what you can do is come up to the tree, dig into the soil just in front of the tractor/behind the tree to loosen the soil right in front of you, and then push the tree over, which will uproot the stumps in the process. There are some really good tips on pushing trees over with a grapple in this thread if you haven't seen it already....
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/282691-whats-your-technique-removing-trees.html

With a 50hp tractor, HST, and a FEL grapple, I'd say you have everything you need for that size tree removal. It will be quicker, cheaper, and more fun than the backhoe :thumbsup: I have a full sized construction backhoe in addition to my tractor, and I never use the backhoe unless I have to, as the tractor and grapple are far superior and more efficient for the size trees your referring to. :thumbsup:

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Guys, thanks for your thoughts. I'm considering buying an older used tractor with a backhoe and then selling it when I'm done with this project. Or, I could buy a new tractor and just spring for the extra cost of adding a backhoe. But I've got a lot of box blading and mowing to do also, and it's inconvenient to be swapping a BH, BB and mower all the time. So a dedicated BH tractor would have some advantages.

Jeff, our soil here is heavy black gummy clay. These cedars might come out easier after a good rain. But I have to work on this in my spare time, so I can't wait for a rain every time.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Piston, our ground is so hard here that these cedars just want to break off the trunk before uprooting the roots. But you're right, I'm gonna get a grapple with my tractor anyway, so I could give that a try before buying a BH. The Bobcat I was using just had a regular bucket with no tooth bar, so it didn't work well at all for loosening the soil around the tree. The grapple would probably work better.

 

[Piston]

Piston, our ground is so hard here that these cedars just want to break off the trunk before uprooting the roots. But you're right, I'm gonna get a grapple with my tractor anyway, so I could give that a try before buying a BH.

I can't comment on your soil of course, as it's different than what I have, however, I can assure you that a grapple will be able to loosen the soil much better than a bucket with teeth can. The grapple has all of it's force concentrated on just the teeth of the grapple, and the narrow tines of the bottom of the grapple, whereas with the bucket, your actually digging all the soil up, and using all that surface area of the bucket, making it much harder to dig.
There are many trees that I had to loosen the soil with before knocking them over, and I do believe that even with harder soil, and having to spend more time loosening the soil, it will still be faster and more efficient to use the grapple than it would be to setup with the backhoe, dig it up, knock the tree over, turn around, and grab the tree with the grapple. I do think you'll be impressed with what it can do.

The best way to figure this out of course, would be to buy both, and try both, and let us know what works better, but I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you'll end up using the grapple anyways (and of course I could be very wrong :laughing


Hopefully people with similar soil types will chime in as well.

 

[Piston]

oops, I don't know what I did, I meant to delete the pic, but I think I deleted the post? The picture I posted was from the thread I posted earlier, and he used the backhoe to loosen the roots first, not just the grapple.

Here is an example of what you can do with just the grapple alone.... (in my soil conditions of course)

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

. . . The best way to figure this out of course, would be to buy both, and try both, and let us know what works better, but I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you'll end up using the grapple anyways (and of course I could be very wrong :laughing . . . .

Well, I'm sorta using you guys as my personal testing lab, so there's nothing wrong with you asking me to return the favor.

 

[ddivinia]

I have done exactly what you are trying to do. As a matter of fact - you have seen the results.

1. We used a compact track loader to work around the base and push them over. Takeuchi TL150 with a tooth bucket. We cleared a WHOLE bunch that way. You end up with a big pile of trees and a lot of stump holes.

2. We used a track hoe. We were digging a tank - and a track hoe will clear them without a problem.

3. Dozer - push them over - stump holes, etc.

4. 180hp Fecon mulcher - can turn a fully mature cedar tree into toothpicks in 30 secs. Nothing to burn - but you have stumps. Depending on how deep the mulch is - the stumps might be very tall or you might never see them.

Cedar stumps are much easier to remove when it is dry. I have gotten so when I can tell they are loose - I cut the roots on both sides and knock the whole thing out whole.

I am currently removing stumps with a Kubota SVL75 with a stump grinder. The mulch is low enough I am tried of tearing equipment up.

I am also clearing mesquites out at my other place. A tree shear on the front of a compact track loader - a guy on a grapple can't keep up. One can clear a whole bunch and if you get good with it - the stumps will be at ground level or lower.

How many trees are you talking. 100 or 200? A CTL with a shear on it you could knock that out in a week. Now the problem is piling them. You really might need two machines. One shearing and one piling. When those cedars burn - they burn hot.

That 180HP Fecon mulcher - we clear around 50 acres in a week. Nothing to burn - gone. Now I am messing with stumps. Either way you end up with stumps.

Do you want to plow the whole place? Get a dozer and push them all over. Shove them out of the way and get it done. Pile it up.

If you dont want stump holes but are OK with some short stumps here and there - rent a CTL with a tree shear. I cleared 30 acres of mesquites in two weekends.

I know renting gear sucks and we all want to own our stuff. For less than what adding a backhoe on a tractor (way less) you can have dozer delivered for a week or a month. Push all that crap and be done with it. Then you can fool with cleaning it up, burning, etc. Make a donation to your local fire department and have them come help burn.

D.

 

[NorthPole]

I've removed birch, cotton wood, and black spruce this year. My machine (JD3520) simply isn't big enough to push over much more than 3-4" tree. I built a ripper tooth onto my ballast box that will go down about 8". I cut around the trees to break the roots. Then I either try pulling them over using a tow strap (carefully considering where the tree will go), or I use the bucket to roll up the root mat and up end the trees. I have a grapple on order because I think that will be much better than a bucket. This process is not fast. But, I'm doing this an after work project. If I were wanting to get it done, I'd hire someone with a substantially larger machine and be done with it.

 

[jenkinsph]

I have done exactly what you are trying to do. As a matter of fact - you have seen the results.

1. We used a compact track loader to work around the base and push them over. Takeuchi TL150 with a tooth bucket. We cleared a WHOLE bunch that way. You end up with a big pile of trees and a lot of stump holes.

2. We used a track hoe. We were digging a tank - and a track hoe will clear them without a problem.

3. Dozer - push them over - stump holes, etc.

4. 180hp Fecon mulcher - can turn a fully mature cedar tree into toothpicks in 30 secs. Nothing to burn - but you have stumps. Depending on how deep the mulch is - the stumps might be very tall or you might never see them.

Cedar stumps are much easier to remove when it is dry. I have gotten so when I can tell they are loose - I cut the roots on both sides and knock the whole thing out whole.

I am currently removing stumps with a Kubota SVL75 with a stump grinder. The mulch is low enough I am tried of tearing equipment up.

I am also clearing mesquites out at my other place. A tree shear on the front of a compact track loader - a guy on a grapple can't keep up. One can clear a whole bunch and if you get good with it - the stumps will be at ground level or lower.

How many trees are you talking. 100 or 200? A CTL with a shear on it you could knock that out in a week. Now the problem is piling them. You really might need two machines. One shearing and one piling. When those cedars burn - they burn hot.

That 180HP Fecon mulcher - we clear around 50 acres in a week. Nothing to burn - gone. Now I am messing with stumps. Either way you end up with stumps.

Do you want to plow the whole place? Get a dozer and push them all over. Shove them out of the way and get it done. Pile it up.

If you dont want stump holes but are OK with some short stumps here and there - rent a CTL with a tree shear. I cleared 30 acres of mesquites in two weekends.

I know renting gear sucks and we all want to own our stuff. For less than what adding a backhoe on a tractor (way less) you can have dozer delivered for a week or a month. Push all that crap and be done with it. Then you can fool with cleaning it up, burning, etc. Make a donation to your local fire department and have them come help burn.

D.

I agree with Darin on this, use the right equipment and get it done. I would not buy the equipment rather have it done. Buy the equipment you need for the long term use afterwards.

 

[Gary Fowler]

If you will have a use for a back hoe afterwards, I would go with that option(see below statement). I find mine useful on an almost daily basis and cant believe how I got by without it. However if you cant justify the $7-8K needed to purchase, I would recommend renting or hiring an excavator to dig them up. An excavator with a thumb can dig them up and then pick up and pile them somewhat so he can continue to work on digging. You will have much less root ball dirt on them that way also rather than just pushing them over.
One reason I like to own my equipment is because it is there when I need it. I can work 2 hours a day or 10 and it doesn't increase my cost any other than diesel fuel. For me, my TLB stays a TLB so I don't have to hook up and unhook the back hoe because I have 2 tractors.

I would suggest that for just a few dollars more than the cost of a back hoe for your 40-50HP tractor, you can buy a full sized commercial grade backhoe to uproot all your trees, fill in the holes etc and then sell it afterward for what you gave for it OR keep it for later use if you have any. My house building contractor got a pretty nice one for $8500. It has a little slop in the pins from wear but is still very good with no leaks. They can be found and because there are so many for sale with not many buyers, they are reasonable priced.
I bought my B26 because of the small size which I needed to be able to use it in tight spaces. MY P7010 is pretty awkward in tight spots. Now I find myself going to the B26 all the time rather than the 70HP even though the LS has a cab and AC.

 

[ddivinia]

I agree on the 2 hours here and there thing.

D.

 

[crazyal]

I think I would get a subsoiler. Not a TSC one but a real heavy duty one. I've heard good things about the "Fred Cain" one. With a 40 to 50 hp tractor you should be able to rip up the roots. On the larger trees you may have to get further away from the stump to where the root diameter is a little smaller but I think it would work. Dozers do this all the time. They make attachments for the front to remove wide areas of dirt and single rippers for the rear to really pull hard.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Darin, I have indeed seen the results of your work. Your place looks great! And that's what I want to do - clear it but leave some trees here and there to give it a little character and provide some shade for the livestock.

Gary, I went and looked at a couple of small backhoes today. Unfortunately, one was 3 point hitch mounted (which I'd rather avoid). The other one had a Woods frame-mounted backhoe, but was overpriced. And I saw a very nice, gently used Kubota M59 with the 3rd function on the loader and the hydraulic thumb on the BH. If only I was made of money, that beast would make short work of those cedars.

And I fully agree on owning vs. renting. I travel a lot and often have unexpected trips come up. It would suck to rent something and then have to leave town for a week. I want to be able work on my property when I have the time. It would be nice to own the equipment so it's there when I need it.

 

[ddivinia]

If I have to rent something I like the weekend rentals. They usually cut a deal on weekend rates.

These tractors aren't made to be dozers. Maybe you just need to get a tractor with a hoe and knock it out little by little.

Have you looked for used hoes? Machinefinder usually has some.

D.

 

[murphy1244]

I think I would get a subsoiler. Not a TSC one but a real heavy duty one. I've heard good things about the "Fred Cain" one. With a 40 to 50 hp tractor you should be able to rip up the roots. On the larger trees you may have to get further away from the stump to where the root diameter is a little smaller but I think it would work. Dozers do this all the time. They make attachments for the front to remove wide areas of dirt and single rippers for the rear to really pull hard.

I would try that first myself, those Fred Cain models are great.

 

[ddivinia]

If you don't mind leaving stumps in the ground - cut the trunk way down low with a chainsaw. Then you should be able to push them over. Grapple them up and burn them. I have to say - this drier weather and 4-5 years for the stumps to dry out - they are coming out pretty easy. Just takes time.

Have you consider getting a compact tract loader? You can get a zillion different attachments.

Get a used one. You wont put too many hours on it anyway. Sell it for what you paid for it or more when you are done with the tree project. Then get the right tractor.

D.

 

[Piston]

Boy if you could swing the M59 that sure would be a nice machine for your uses, especially with that heavier duty laoder, the 3rd function, and throw a thumb on the backhoe and you could do some serious damage.