Digging Out Cedar Tree Roots: Stump Bucket, Tooth Bar or Backhoe?

[Poopdeck Pappy]

I've got a bunch (hundreds) of cedar trees to knock down, some as large as 10" - 12". Most are 3" - 8". I want to dig out the roots enough that I can knock them over (without breaking the trunk) and haul them off with a grapple. I'm tractor shopping now (still!!!), and would appreciate the benefit of your experience as to which way is the best. The tractor will be somewhere around 45 - 50 HP (large compact tractor with HST).

I figure a backhoe would be the best option, but it's also the most expensive by far. I have no idea if a tooth bar or stump bucket will dig well enough to do the job or not, at least in a time efficient manner. (I don't want to work for hours on each cedar tree.)

My only point of reference is that I borrowed a Bobcat skid steer loader with a regular bucket on it. It will knock down the smaller ones (4" or so), but it keeps breaking the trunk. I need something to dig up some of the roots so I can knock the whole tree over. It takes a LONG time to do that with the standard bucket on the Bobcat.

 

[jeff9366]

While expensive, I think a backhoe is your best option.

With 100's to remove, renting an excavator is probably not a viable alternative.

There are various heterogeneous engineered bucket mounted and 3-Pt. mounted Tree Shears which I have seen here, which might work with a 45-50 HP tractor, but tree shears are pretty much one trick ponies, and expensive themselves.

A toothbar will be too slow, as you have already surmised.

Cedars usually grow in dry ground. Will you be digging in adobe?

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I've done a number of alders up to 12" on my place. Here they grow like weeds so it is a constant chore to thin them out and keep the fires burning. The cedars up here have a very extensive root system like the alders. Up to about 4" I can push alders over with my little BX25's FEL by setting the bucket at about 5' high and push, rips the roots right out and then push it around to break free from the soil. Cut off the roots and put the stump on the burn pile and the trunk in the wood lot, then chip the trash with my PTO chipper (later after removing the BH). Bigger; I use the BH W/8" bucket and dig a trench around and cut the roots with the BH teeth and ripping with the curl back. Piece of cake. Had a double trunk each 8" though that the BH would not lift out of the hole. So, dug a ramp and yanked it put with my Dodge 350. That one was a bear to work it to the top of the burn pile with the FEL. The mighty BX at work. 2-3 hours to do the big ones. Get the BH, it will save you a lot of frustration with the big bucket on the front of a 50hper and digging a big hole.

Ron

 

[Piston]

Pappy,
I'm not sure about the 12" trees regarding how extensive the root system would be, but for the majority of your cedars I think you'd be impressed with what the grapple alone will do. With the larger ones the trunk won't snap easily and you'll be able to push the tree over, stump and all, then push the stump/tree forward with the grapple and carry the whole shebang away!

Before spending money on a backhoe, try the grapple route since your buying one anyways. If the trunks still snap, what you can do is come up to the tree, dig into the soil just in front of the tractor/behind the tree to loosen the soil right in front of you, and then push the tree over, which will uproot the stumps in the process. There are some really good tips on pushing trees over with a grapple in this thread if you haven't seen it already....
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/282691-whats-your-technique-removing-trees.html

With a 50hp tractor, HST, and a FEL grapple, I'd say you have everything you need for that size tree removal. It will be quicker, cheaper, and more fun than the backhoe :thumbsup: I have a full sized construction backhoe in addition to my tractor, and I never use the backhoe unless I have to, as the tractor and grapple are far superior and more efficient for the size trees your referring to. :thumbsup:

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Guys, thanks for your thoughts. I'm considering buying an older used tractor with a backhoe and then selling it when I'm done with this project. Or, I could buy a new tractor and just spring for the extra cost of adding a backhoe. But I've got a lot of box blading and mowing to do also, and it's inconvenient to be swapping a BH, BB and mower all the time. So a dedicated BH tractor would have some advantages.

Jeff, our soil here is heavy black gummy clay. These cedars might come out easier after a good rain. But I have to work on this in my spare time, so I can't wait for a rain every time.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Piston, our ground is so hard here that these cedars just want to break off the trunk before uprooting the roots. But you're right, I'm gonna get a grapple with my tractor anyway, so I could give that a try before buying a BH. The Bobcat I was using just had a regular bucket with no tooth bar, so it didn't work well at all for loosening the soil around the tree. The grapple would probably work better.

 

[Piston]

Piston, our ground is so hard here that these cedars just want to break off the trunk before uprooting the roots. But you're right, I'm gonna get a grapple with my tractor anyway, so I could give that a try before buying a BH.

I can't comment on your soil of course, as it's different than what I have, however, I can assure you that a grapple will be able to loosen the soil much better than a bucket with teeth can. The grapple has all of it's force concentrated on just the teeth of the grapple, and the narrow tines of the bottom of the grapple, whereas with the bucket, your actually digging all the soil up, and using all that surface area of the bucket, making it much harder to dig.
There are many trees that I had to loosen the soil with before knocking them over, and I do believe that even with harder soil, and having to spend more time loosening the soil, it will still be faster and more efficient to use the grapple than it would be to setup with the backhoe, dig it up, knock the tree over, turn around, and grab the tree with the grapple. I do think you'll be impressed with what it can do.

The best way to figure this out of course, would be to buy both, and try both, and let us know what works better, but I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you'll end up using the grapple anyways (and of course I could be very wrong :laughing


Hopefully people with similar soil types will chime in as well.

 

[Piston]

oops, I don't know what I did, I meant to delete the pic, but I think I deleted the post? The picture I posted was from the thread I posted earlier, and he used the backhoe to loosen the roots first, not just the grapple.

Here is an example of what you can do with just the grapple alone.... (in my soil conditions of course)

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

. . . The best way to figure this out of course, would be to buy both, and try both, and let us know what works better, but I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you'll end up using the grapple anyways (and of course I could be very wrong :laughing . . . .

Well, I'm sorta using you guys as my personal testing lab, so there's nothing wrong with you asking me to return the favor.

 

[ddivinia]

I have done exactly what you are trying to do. As a matter of fact - you have seen the results.

1. We used a compact track loader to work around the base and push them over. Takeuchi TL150 with a tooth bucket. We cleared a WHOLE bunch that way. You end up with a big pile of trees and a lot of stump holes.

2. We used a track hoe. We were digging a tank - and a track hoe will clear them without a problem.

3. Dozer - push them over - stump holes, etc.

4. 180hp Fecon mulcher - can turn a fully mature cedar tree into toothpicks in 30 secs. Nothing to burn - but you have stumps. Depending on how deep the mulch is - the stumps might be very tall or you might never see them.

Cedar stumps are much easier to remove when it is dry. I have gotten so when I can tell they are loose - I cut the roots on both sides and knock the whole thing out whole.

I am currently removing stumps with a Kubota SVL75 with a stump grinder. The mulch is low enough I am tried of tearing equipment up.

I am also clearing mesquites out at my other place. A tree shear on the front of a compact track loader - a guy on a grapple can't keep up. One can clear a whole bunch and if you get good with it - the stumps will be at ground level or lower.

How many trees are you talking. 100 or 200? A CTL with a shear on it you could knock that out in a week. Now the problem is piling them. You really might need two machines. One shearing and one piling. When those cedars burn - they burn hot.

That 180HP Fecon mulcher - we clear around 50 acres in a week. Nothing to burn - gone. Now I am messing with stumps. Either way you end up with stumps.

Do you want to plow the whole place? Get a dozer and push them all over. Shove them out of the way and get it done. Pile it up.

If you dont want stump holes but are OK with some short stumps here and there - rent a CTL with a tree shear. I cleared 30 acres of mesquites in two weekends.

I know renting gear sucks and we all want to own our stuff. For less than what adding a backhoe on a tractor (way less) you can have dozer delivered for a week or a month. Push all that crap and be done with it. Then you can fool with cleaning it up, burning, etc. Make a donation to your local fire department and have them come help burn.

D.