Disc harrow-3pt type vs drawbar type

[flusher]

I'm shopping for a 7 to 8-foot disc harrow for my MF-135 diesel.

What are the pros and cons of the 3pt-mounted disc vs the type you pull via the drawbar?

I gather from reading several TBN threads that there is the usual concern about sufficient weight to get the disc to work properly and that you probably want to raise the 3pt disc when turning. What about turns with the drawbar disc? Do you have to worry about damaging the discs if you don't have hyraulics to raise the drawbar disc?

I'm trying to get my 7 acres of flat grazing land into shape to plant a cover crop, probably annual rye to start.

 

[dieselsmoke1]

My opinion:

A 135 is going to be much better suited for a lift type disc as some of the disc weight can be transfered to the tractor when needed. It's not heavy enough on the rear axle to pull a trailer type disc real well. The 3 pt. lift can handle a 24 blade disc easily, I don't know of a reason to get a trailer type.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I'm shopping for a 7 to 8-foot disc harrow for my MF-135 diesel.

What are the pros and cons of the 3pt-mounted disc vs the type you pull via the drawbar?

I gather from reading several TBN threads that there is the usual concern about sufficient weight to get the disc to work properly and that you probably want to raise the 3pt disc when turning. What about turns with the drawbar disc? Do you have to worry about damaging the discs if you don't have hyraulics to raise the drawbar disc?

I'm trying to get my 7 acres of flat grazing land into shape to plant a cover crop, probably annual rye to start.

3-point disc; Biggest advantage? MOBILITY and MANUVERABILITY. Biggest disadvantage(s) By nature, it needs to be light enough to pick up, generally with smaller tractors. That hurts its ability to do what it's intended to do in most cases. Also, most 3-point disc's are "rigid" in relation to the tractor.Good on land flat as a pool table. NOT good on undulating terrain. They need to be "short coupled" too, in order lift them. That makes them tend to rotate the back end up and over when the front gangs start to dig in. A lift type disc needs to be picked up to make even the slightest turns.

Pull-type; Biggest advantage is you can pile on the weight. Generally, a tractor with even barely adaquate hydraulics can power a cylinder capable of lifting a heavy disc. Since there needs to be room between gangs for an axle, they're stretched out a bit, giving adaquate weight on the rear gangs to prevent that "up and over" rotation. A drawbar type has a certain ammount of flex between tractor and disc, letting it follow the terrain better. You can go around in circles with a drawn type too.

All things being equal, and if you don't need the mobility of a 3-point disc, drawn types are MUCH better at doing their intended jobs. That's why I have one of each.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

My opinion:

A 135 is going to be much better suited for a lift type disc as some of the disc weight can be transfered to the tractor when needed. It's not heavy enough on the rear axle to pull a trailer type disc real well. The 3 pt. lift can handle a 24 blade disc easily, I don't know of a reason to get a trailer type.

There bis the big rub with a pulltype and a SMALLER tractor. Not a lot of options on wheel disc's in smaller sizes. A 135 would handle a 6' or 7' wheel disc just fine.....IF THERE WAS SUCH A THING. 8' or bigger and a 135 runs out of weight/traction. My 150 Massey handles my 8'-6" IH #350 disc, but it pulls harder (because of the disc's built in weight) than my 9'-8" Massey Ferguson #25 pick-up disc.(which needs suitcase weights to get enough bite to do the same job the IH disc does without added weight) Put either behind my 2440 Deere, and I can hardly tell they're back there. That's what 20 more HP and 2700 lbs will do.

All in all, if I have the tractor to pull either, the wheel disc does a much better job.

 

[dieselsmoke1]

No need for explanations, Farmwithjunk. You raised some valid points, I may not agree with but valid all the same.

On the light land i grew up on, a 135d pulling a trailered attachment in 1st high would run out of grip way before power. Heavy ground, lot's of trash and it would be a different story.

 

[flusher]

There bis the big rub with a pulltype and a SMALLER tractor. Not a lot of options on wheel disc's in smaller sizes. A 135 would handle a 6' or 7' wheel disc just fine.....IF THERE WAS SUCH A THING. 8' or bigger and a 135 runs out of weight/traction. My 150 Massey handles my 8'-6" IH #350 disc, but it pulls harder (because of the disc's built in weight) than my 9'-8" Massey Ferguson #25 pick-up disc.(which needs suitcase weights to get enough bite to do the same job the IH disc does without added weight) Put either behind my 2440 Deere, and I can hardly tell they're back there. That's what 20 more HP and 2700 lbs will do.

All in all, if I have the tractor to pull either, the wheel disc does a much better job.

I notice that there are some 5, 6, 7-ft offset wheel disc harrows on the market. What's the difference between the offset and the tandem discs?

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I notice that there are some 5, 6, 7-ft offset wheel disc harrows on the market. What's the difference between the offset and the tandem discs?

Mainly, the amount of HP/weight it takes to pull them. Offset disc's are primary tillage tools. They are usually heavy. They're made to dig deep. A tractor that would pull a 10' tandem disc might struggle with a 7' offset.

A good friend who runs an apple and peach orchard uses an offset disc behind a 255 Massey Ferguson. It's a 7'er. He uses the wheels to "gauge" the disc so it doesn't dig too deep. His 255 is 52 HP I believe. If he lets the disc drop all the way down, it'll stop the 255 in its tracks.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

No need for explanations, Farmwithjunk. You raised some valid points, I may not agree with but valid all the same.

On the light land i grew up on, a 135d pulling a trailered attachment in 1st high would run out of grip way before power. Heavy ground, lot's of trash and it would be a different story.

Back when the 135 was still in production, they sold like hotcakes here in Kentucky. (Apparently they sold well EVERYWHERE) Ky and Tenn. has always been a hot area for Massey's. When the 135 came on the scene, they were replacing a mix-match of small tractors from the 40's and 50's. A lot of farmers bought a new plow with their 135, and would use their existing disc. I've seen thousands of 135's pulling old pull-type "drag disc's". (The kind without wheels) They would handle a 6' , 7', even a few 8'ers with relative ease here in clay country. Dad had a TO-35, then an F-40 Ferguson, finally a 150 MF. He used an old IH 7' drag disc right up until the day he quit working his place.

I use a bigger disc behind my 150 than is common practice. (If you're not familiar with 150 Massey's, they're a 135 on steriods. Same engine, same tranny, longer wheel base, same front end as a 165, larger radiator, 165 dry air cleaner, bigger fuel tank, much better steering, more weight all of which is on the front end) Last new rubber on the 150 is a size wider than stock, and I've got it weighted, plus the pump has been turned up to 47 HP (pto). It handles the 9-1/2' lift disc just fine NOW. It wouldn't have done that in it's original state.

The 135, especially the diesels, were powered beyond their traction capabilities. (Which is better than the opposite) I'd imagine in sandy or loose ground that would be exagerated even more so.

I've just never been real impressed with the performance of a 3-point disc. I just recently bought the #25 Massey disc I have now. It's about as good as a 3-point disc gets, but is still no match for the IH wheel disc I have. Just takes more tractor to pull the IH.

 

[flusher]

I've just never been real impressed with the performance of a 3-point disc. I just recently bought the #25 Massey disc I have now. It's about as good as a 3-point disc gets, but is still no match for the IH wheel disc I have. Just takes more tractor to pull the IH.

How about this. Get a couple of KK ATV tow discs with 33"-wide cut and rig up a tow bar attachment for the MF-135 that can handle two of these discs. I would set the tow balls to get a 7-ft wide cut with a bare strip about 2-ft wide running down the middle. I can handle that problem with multiple passes.
A $1200 solution. Looks like it's easy to add weight to make the discs work better.

King Kutter Incorporated

 

[npaden]

I'm really happy with the performance of my 3 point disc. It's an 8' and I'm pulling it very easy with my 45hp kubota.

I'm sure it wouldn't work very good on dry packed soil, but if you can wait for some moisture it works really well.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[flusher]

I'm really happy with the performance of my 3 point disc. It's an 8' and I'm pulling it very easy with my 45hp kubota.

I'm sure it wouldn't work very good on dry packed soil, but if you can wait for some moisture it works really well.

FWIW, Nathan

Thanks for the input.
That's the plan. Wait until the rainy season starts in Nov and then get to work on the pasture with the disc and the drag harrow.
The soil is like a brick now.
Don't have gov't subsidized irrigation on my place, so have to schedule tilling and planting around the weather forecast.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I'm really happy with the performance of my 3 point disc. It's an 8' and I'm pulling it very easy with my 45hp kubota.

I'm sure it wouldn't work very good on dry packed soil, but if you can wait for some moisture it works really well.

FWIW, Nathan

A GOOD 3-point disc will get the job done. Just far too many "not so good" versions on the market for my liking. That one of yours looks to be stout enough to handle being used hard, even having extra weight hung on the frame. It helps that you're in flat country too. A disc just works better on flat ground.

Here's my 3-pointer. (Massey Ferguson #25. 9'er.) I spent a LONG day dragging it around this past wed. Very pleased with the results.

 

[dieselsmoke1]

Looks like a good old disc, but what impressed me in the photos was that pretty 150 it was hanging on. The paint on the spin out rails ain't even scratched Do you have a full set of pic's posted anywhere?

Yes 150's are great pieces. About the only place a 135 could edge it out was turning radius due the the 150's straight front axle. The extra weight and creature comforts were a big improvement.

Next time out at the farm I'll take a shot of my old 3pt King disc. She was a brute in her day, with worm geared gang adjustments front and rear and boxed beam frames.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Looks like a good old disc, but what impressed me in the photos was that pretty 150 it was hanging on. The paint on the spin out rails ain't even scratched Do you have a full set of pic's posted anywhere?

Yes 150's are great pieces. About the only place a 135 could edge it out was turning radius due the the 150's straight front axle. The extra weight and creature comforts were a big improvement.

Next time out at the farm I'll take a shot of my old 3pt King disc. She was a brute in her day, with worm geared gang adjustments front and rear and boxed beam frames.

I've posted a few pictures of the 150 on here, but I can't begin to tell you what the thread title was. I'm about to take it all apart and do a "premium" paint job on it this winter. I keep the rims touched up as best I can to avoid rust. That tractor has had Calc/chlor in the rear tires since new. Same rims. So much for the "quick to rust" theory, huh? With the front and rear wheels set out wide, the 150 turns better. Set in narrow, it has a tendency to "push" the front wheels when you turn. With them spaced like I have them, a tap of the turning brakes, and she'll pivot on the inside rear wheel. I'm starting to gather up parts and pieces to restore another 150 along with a Ferguson F-40 and a Massey Ferguson 50. Maybe even a Massey Harris 50 at some point. The MF 50 was dads. The F-40 was my uncles. I've just about got all the major work done on our new place. At that stage I won't need all my tractors anymore (as WORKING tractors) I'm going to sell the 3000 Ford and 2440 Deere to my son and take care of this place with my Masseys. (Just a garden and some bush hogging) I'm wanting to find a complete "set" of Massey implements to match up with the 150. I have the disc. Looking for a model #66 plow, maybe a model #41 Dynabalance mower, and if I can find one, a #39 2-row planter. I grew up on these tractors, guess I'll fade away on them too.

 

[dieselsmoke1]

Dad's first tractor was an "M". We restored it 4 yrs. ago. Still have the disc, bottoms, mowing machine and cultivators complete with tire sweeps, ridging blades and scratchers. We hitch her to a trailer now and then and she still putt putt's around the farm as proud as ever.

After that came a used redbelly, then another used redbelly because we needed at least one of them running.

When the new MF35 rode up with 3 14's and a new King disc I thought I had died and gone to heaven. We traded work and equipment with a cousin across the road and between us many more red pieces came and went over the years. An MH50, MF50, 135, 150, 165, 165 hi clearance, 180, 1080, 285, 1105 and 1135. Neighbor down the road had an 1155. What a sweet sound.

We had the 4 row Ferguson planters, the 2 rows were Coles.

 

[flusher]

There bis the big rub with a pulltype and a SMALLER tractor. Not a lot of options on wheel disc's in smaller sizes. A 135 would handle a 6' or 7' wheel disc just fine.....IF THERE WAS SUCH A THING. 8' or bigger and a 135 runs out of weight/traction. My 150 Massey handles my 8'-6" IH #350 disc, but it pulls harder (because of the disc's built in weight) than my 9'-8" Massey Ferguson #25 pick-up disc.(which needs suitcase weights to get enough bite to do the same job the IH disc does without added weight) Put either behind my 2440 Deere, and I can hardly tell they're back there. That's what 20 more HP and 2700 lbs will do.

All in all, if I have the tractor to pull either, the wheel disc does a much better job.

The fellow who sold me the 1966 MF-135 diesel used a 7-ft pick up disc to till his olive orchard. Said it worked fine during the rainy season (Nov-May) when the discs sunk to the level of the bearings while tilling. He had more trouble discing the weeds during the hot months prior to harvest in Sep when the ground gets harder (even with irrigation in the orchards keeping the ground softer).

I'm confident that I can lay my hands on a 7-ft tandem pick-up disc pretty easily around here. Question: is there any fundamental reason why that type of disc can't be converted to a pull type (minus the wheels)? Sounds like a good project for me and my trusty Hobart Stickmate welder.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Some will depend on WHICH 3-point disc you end up with. Generally, they have front and rear gangs closer together than wheel disc's. That would be to your benifit if you don't intend to add a transport axle. By having the gangs closer together, you'll be able to turn somewhat easier.

The OLD pull-type "drag disc's" that didn't have transport axles usually had a "steering" capability of some description. The front and rear gangs would change orientation as the tractor made it's turn. Otherwise, you would be trying to drag it sideways, pulling against the disc blades as they dug in. More than likely, that would result in something breaking.

My first inclination would be to get a pick-up disc and try it out without making any major changes. See how it works. We might just be trying to re-invent the wheel here. If you can make a 3-point disc work, it's extremely handy to have the manuverability they offer.

Something else I'm wondering about. I've seen a good many pictures of California vineyards where they have what I call a "bog disc". It's a single gang disc with a LOT of built-in weight. It's made for cutting through roots and sod. I'd try looking around in a few used implement dealers to see if one of them might be found. Because of it being relatively short compared to a tandem disc, you could pile on the weight and still be able to lift it with your 135.

 

[flusher]

Some will depend on WHICH 3-point disc you end up with. Generally, they have front and rear gangs closer together than wheel disc's. That would be to your benifit if you don't intend to add a transport axle. By having the gangs closer together, you'll be able to turn somewhat easier.

The OLD pull-type "drag disc's" that didn't have transport axles usually had a "steering" capability of some description. The front and rear gangs would change orientation as the tractor made it's turn. Otherwise, you would be trying to drag it sideways, pulling against the disc blades as they dug in. More than likely, that would result in something breaking.

My first inclination would be to get a pick-up disc and try it out without making any major changes. See how it works. We might just be trying to re-invent the wheel here. If you can make a 3-point disc work, it's extremely handy to have the manuverability they offer.

Something else I'm wondering about. I've seen a good many pictures of California vineyards where they have what I call a "bog disc". It's a single gang disc with a LOT of built-in weight. It's made for cutting through roots and sod. I'd try looking around in a few used implement dealers to see if one of them might be found. Because of it being relatively short compared to a tandem disc, you could pile on the weight and still be able to lift it with your 135.

Thanks for the info. I'll check with my neighbors regarding the bog disc.