Simple Wiring Issus on Ford 2000 (Pre 1964, 4 Cyl)

[Randa]

Wow, I'm such an idiot! With so few wires, I don't know how I could screw this up. Restoring my Pre 1964, 4 cylinder Ford 2000 and I'm simply wanting to start my 12 volt tractor using the button starter. I have attached a simple diagram to show you what I've got. I have replaced the solenoid. Please don't be afraid to ask even the simplest questions as I'm completely stumped. Is this a 12 volt conversion issue?

 

[Pepsiboy]

Randa,

How are the terminals on the relay marked ? It could be that you may not have it installed correctly. Please post sketch of how the relay is marked. I'll try to help.

Dave

 

[byronlj]

Leave 4a the way it is. Run another wire from #3 positive switch to the terminal on your button switch that says ground. Before you do this, make sure the button switch is not electrically hooked to ground. This method will work if it doesn't send that + voltage to ground. A positive ground system would work through that switch but evidently that has been changed, which started your problem. If that switch is grounded and you can't isolate it, purchase a push button switch that has two terminals.
Dave

 

[Soundguy]

Leave 4a the way it is.

Sorry, but this short line is the only electrically correct part of this message. leave 4a like it is.

the rest of the post will cause sparks and melted wires, and has incorrect electrical information !

Run another wire from #3 positive switch to the terminal on your button switch that says ground. Before you do this, make sure the button switch is not electrically hooked to ground. This method will work if it doesn't send that + voltage to ground. A positive ground system would work through that switch but evidently that has been changed, which started your problem. If that switch is grounded and you can't isolate it, purchase a push button switch that has two terminals.
Dave

running 3 to the thumb switch will short the ignition switch when the thumb switch is pressed, as it is a ground source. congratulations! burnt wires!


Has nothing to do with positive or negative ground. That just changes the directions the electrons flow and what battery cable is tied to chassis.

purchasing a seperate push button start switch means he would be disabling the safety neutral starter interlock built into his tractor, poteltially menaing he could run himself over as it can be started in gear... not good advice...

The OP said he repalced the solenoid, which may be the root of the problem.. tractor solenoids used on these old fords were isolated base style.

2 big lugs. one to bat, one to starter.

2 little lugs, one to switched side of key ( coil side ), and the other to ground thru the thumb switch.


Most people just toss on an automotive 4 post solenoid that is a bypass style. they take power to one small terminal and ground thru the base.
which i believe is what the op is saying that if he hooks one of the small posts to hot directly, the starter turns over. IE.. incorrect solenoid.

 

[byronlj]

Soundguy,
I realize you are the guru on old fords and I respect that. As for giving bad electrical information on my part you are incorrect. I stated to make sure he was not sending 12v+ to ground through the switch. I agree he probably got the wrong solenoid. However, he said when he jumped the two small terminals with another wire, it started, as an automotive solenoid should. That is why I wanted to send the 12v+ back to the small solenoid connection through the starter button, which would work. I also would never imagine they had a safety interlock on a 1964 tractor. At this point he either needs to get the original solenoid which would enable the interlock or replace his starter switch with a simple push button.
Dave

 

[Randa]

Randa,

How are the terminals on the relay marked ? It could be that you may not have it installed correctly. Please post sketch of how the relay is marked. I'll try to help.

Dave

Thanks for asking, I don't know how the relay is marked but there is only one way to put it on. It simply will not fit any other way.

 

[Soundguy]

Sorry, you ate still mistaken, your premix of not sending 12v to ground thru the start switc was a failed thought from the beginning, that's what the thumb switch does, period, it provides ground.

Also, fords had neutral safety interlocked starters since just after the start of the 9n.

Replacing the starter switch with a push button defeats the ns start feature and is unsafe from a liability standpoint as advice goes imho.

 

[Randa]

Ok, Gents, thanks for the discussion. 1. Will eliminating the push starter and adding a key start work? 2. Why is it recommended to change the polarity of the tractor when converting to 12 Volt from 6 volt?
3. When I got this tractor, already converted to 12 volts, the push button starter worked. How? (was it electrically safe?) There was only one wire connecting the push button to the solenoid. 4. You say I got the wrong solenoid (i'm not doubting your correctness) but what is the problem with it? Supposedly, I have the correct solenoid. 5. "safety neutral starter interlock".... how am I inadvertently bypassing this? Please explain.

 

[Soundguy]

Ok, Gents, thanks for the discussion. 1. Will eliminating the push starter and adding a key start work? 2. Why is it recommended to change the polarity of the tractor when converting to 12 Volt from 6 volt?
3. When I got this tractor, already converted to 12 volts, the push button starter worked. How? (was it electrically safe?) There was only one wire connecting the push button to the solenoid. 4. You say I got the wrong solenoid (i'm not doubting your correctness) but what is the problem with it? Supposedly, I have the correct solenoid. 5. "safety neutral starter interlock".... how am I inadvertently bypassing this? Please explain.

The answers to most of these have already been stated in my posts, but I'll recap those after addressing the 12v issue.

1, yes... not reccomended ( by me thought. )
2, when most people change to 12v, they stick an alternator on... MOST alts ont he consumer market are NEGATIVE GROUND.. You CAN get positive ground alts, but they are harder to find. Also, if you go to electronic ignition, the available units for 12v are negative ground. thus the polarity swap.

3, how? it was hooked up correctly! solenoid coil became hot with key on, push button provided ground when pushed. simple electric circuit. Was it safe? yes, push button is designed so it can't be pushed when tractor is in gear... thus it is a neutral safety starter interlock.. the push button ONLY provides a ground path for the solenoid field coil.

4, problem? It's not working as hooekd up is it? I'd say that's what's wrong! It is designed so that the mounting legs are providing ground to the coil, and that providing switched power to one of the small terminals, it pulls in the relay contacts.

5, at the risk of being redundant, if you use a setup that does not incorporate the thumb button on the trans cover to actuate the starter ONLY when in neutral, then you are defeating the starter safety interlock as designed for that machine.

 

[Randa]

Thanks for the info, Soundguy Great info.