Tiller Problem with "NEW" 6 FT King Kutter Rotary Tiller

[zzvyb6]

At my company, we used to sell bad, worn and tested vehicle parts to scrap metal dealers. We soon found out that others were buying up the 'scrap' and reassembling these collections and selling them to unsuspecting buyers. We had to grind off serial and part numbers and even follow the scrappers to their metal chippers in order to make sure this didn't happen again. We even have to drill 3" holes in tires ordered for testing and analysis because some scrappers will resell them as take-offs. We wound up in court because a vehicle crashed because a suspension part failed when going over a rough road. Sure enough, it was a resold part from a wear and abuse test. That didn't matter, though, the jury still awarded the woman $20M. "Deepest Pockets" theory.

I still don't see what your beef is, though. You avoided a real dealer and a warranty because of cost issues, drove 6 hours to save a few bucks, got a machine that needs a $3.00 part to get it working and think you got ripped off. Just about anybody can tell you that auctions are filled with stuff that can't sell any other way. It's common for 2 bidders to refuse to quit because they have too much gonad and get a 'bargain' for more than the price of a new item. Didn't you at least spin the drive and tiller shaft to see if they we related? Let me guess, the next complaint will be that one of the blades was loose and tore up the sheet metal. That's what dealers carry for responsibility. That's what you get for buying at an auction. I actually enjoy auctions because I know the stuff is beat up or junk, decide on a price, call it, maybe buy it, fix it and use the heck out of it. I don't have to worry about waxing the paint, its already shot. Wait till you find out its actually another brand with KK stickers on it.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I've been talking with an auctioneer friend here of late about "issues" a few of us are having with another auctioneer in the area who's been known to deliberately deceive buyers. I'm trying to gather info before speaking with my attorney. So....What I have is "one mans opinion", albiet the opinion of someone who SHOULD know what he speaks of. Here's some of what I was told.

Removing serial numbers, destroying and/or hiding records of past ownership, service records, and previous history of an item being auctioned (or sold in ANY fashion) becomes illegal (either/or in civil terms or criminal) as soon as it's done DELIBERATELY to deceive eventual buyers. The trick is proving intent. Because of the nature of lawsuits, lawyers (the shady kind), and greedy auctioneers (not ALL fit that stereotype), companies attempting to liquidate old stock, damaged or returned stock, obsolete inventory, or overstocked items have a certain obligation to protect their own self interests. MOST will do what is required to insure there is no damage to their company or it's reputation. That's why they send it through an independently run auction rather than selling it themselves, or even sponsoring their own auction.

Enter todays tough economy.....

Firms are dumping inventory into auction markets at a pace never seen before. It's a simple matter of survival at this point in the game. MOST auctioneers will do whatever they can to make buyers look at sale items through rose colored glasses. Most auctioneers have their disclaimer at the beginning of each sale that among other things, explains how you're buying "as is and where is. No warranty expressed or implied". That's their way out. In the end, you have to realize that almost anything "new" ending up on an auction block has some sort of tainted history. That tiller would have been at a normal retail outlet if it didn't have a story to tell. Just count your lucky stars it wasn't worse that it turned out.

 

[Charles Billings]

I think Zzvyb6 has gone a little overboard in his analysis, but will forgo any comments on his post.

I think Farmwithjunk has done a good job of explaining the how and why of serial numbers and auction equipment. Indeed I do feel lucky that this has turned out as well as it has. In fact, I ended up with a new tiller at a good price. The added price I have paid is the trauma of not knowing the extent of the problems with the tiller. I posted my first time auction experience so others could share what it is like and decide for themselves if they want to buy new at full retail, or buy something used or at auction.

Do you believe that the serial number should remain on the equipment regardless of where or when it is purchased? The KK name was not removed from this tiller, so the company's reputation and possibly their liability continues. I don't know how removing a serial number provides KK any more protection, and believe that they had nothing to do with removing the serial number. In my case I was fully aware of the fact that the auction tiller did not come with any warranty, but believe that even with equipment that is out of warranty, the serial number is important information and should not be removed.

 

[RobertBrown]

"Indeed I do feel lucky that this has turned out as well as it has. In fact, I ended up with a new tiller at a good price. The added price I have paid is the trauma of not knowing the extent of the problems with the tiller."

I would'nt consider my self lucky until I had that thing in service for a week or so. Hopefully your out of the woods, but don't count your chickens before they hatch.
I generally consider 60% of discounted retail (not list price or manuf. suggested retail) the most I would go for any item that's not collectible and shows any signs of use whatsoever, if I can't test it.
Hope it works out and good luck with that device.
RB

 

[jinman]

Charles, the problem with your purchase is that you have no idea how this really came into possession of the auction house. If you look at this from KK's viewpoint, it may be a whole different story.

I don't think any of us think that the profit margin on tillers is so great that the manufacturer can pay for someone to do warranty repair in several different locations around the country. My guess is that this tiller was bought and returned to the store (maybe a TSC) after it failed in the first few minutes of use. TSC just gave the purchaser a new tiller and set the broken out for return to KK. KK probably decided that it would not be profitable to pay to have the tiller shipped back. After all, most of their finished product shipments are outgoing rather than incoming. Also, TSC stores don't have repair persons available. Again, just guessing, but I'd bet this tiller was sold as scrap. It was probably TSC or KK that specified that the tiller have it's serial number destroyed to identify this material as scrap. They never intended for someone like you to buy this at auction while thinking you had purchased a new tiller. I think the full responsibility for full disclosure was on the auction house. Of course, you may go through several levels of finger-pointing with scrap dealers and all of them will say they are also "victims."

As an auction buyer, it's up to you to examine the material and bid based on your determination of worth. Yes, you were misled, but not by King Kutter. Whenever you decide to sell this tiller sometime in the future, will you give full disclosure of its history? I hope so. Your story serves us all by enforcing the rule of "buyer beware."

 

[Reg]

I am fairly sure that the KK web site has (had) an IPB.

BTW, I paid 1299 at tractor supply for a "Manager's Special" 6 ft tiller a couple of years ago.
I guess they just weren't moving at that particular store.

 

[Charles Billings]

Jinman, Thanks for weighing in on this. I don't hesitate at all to say that if I end up selling this, and I presently have no intention of doing so, I would refer the potential buyer to this thread, or present a summary of it. If the tiller ends up being trash, there is no way that I could perpetrate that on someone else. I am sitll hopeful that once I put it into operation that everything goes well. Like Robert Brown says, I am not counting any unhatched chickens. I won't actually start tilling for winter rye until the last of the potatoes are harvested and the wood splitter is removed from the 3 pt hitch. In the mean time, I have repainted it so it looks like new, and am going to think that everything is going to work out for the best, unless proven otherwise. I do think that advertisiing these implements as new was pushing the limit by any autioneer's standard. Even after being directly questioned about its being new, the auctioneer stood by that label. I don't have any reason to believe that KK was involved in removing the serial number. I just wish that it was not so easy for anyone owning a piece of equipment to do so, because I think that would go a long way toward preventing "scrapped" equipment from being sold as new, or stolen equipment as being sold as legitimate. Recently, I purchased a "new" piece of 3 point equipment from a reputable dealer, only to find out that it was not new. It was in fact used and reconditioned, but advertised and sold as new. Yes, buyer beware, everywhere, and probably more so at auction.

 

[taborekle]

Pulled half for what reason? To auction on another day to keep the prices up?

I'm looking for a five footer...... as well I'd like a five foot tiller. I talked myself out of going since I shouldn't be spending the money this year anyway. It did look like a really interesting auction though.

They probably took a look at the size of the crowd, and having been through this before, knew to drop from bidding a percentage of their merchandise.

Larry

 

[jinman]

I do think that advertisiing these implements as new was pushing the limit by any autioneer's standard. Even after being directly questioned about its being new, the auctioneer stood by that label.

Absolutely, Charles. It's just a darn shame that you didn't get a receipt that said "new condition" so you could have some recourse against the auctioneer. I applaud you for your personal honesty and integrity. Hopefully, this will be a great little tiller for you and there will be no need to report anything but that you've had years and years of great service from it. I know I sure like my KKII.

Thanks for posting this. It just goes to show that no matter how hard you try, there are times when you get shafted. If something seems awry, it probably is.

 

[Charles Billings]

I wanted to update this thread so everyone would know what happened to the KKII that was purchased at auction. I couldn't find a 40 mm retaining ring locally, so I ordered one from KK. I hate to tell you what I paid for one little retaining ring, plus shipping, but I thought I should have the genuine thing based on the fact that the problem with this tiller boiled down to a gear coming off after somehow discarding the retaining ring. When I received the ring I installed it and checked out everything by manually spinning the PTO shaft. Everything checked out, but I wasn't ready to put it to use for about another month. In the meantime I decided to paint the tiller New Holland blue, and am pleased with the way that came out. After the wood splitter came off it was time to till the garden and plant some winter rye. Free spinning the tiller with the PTO engaged everything runs and sounds great. Shortly after I started using it to till the top gear came off again. This sent me off to the local hardware store where I decided to buy the closest size, 1.5", which is about .6 mm smaller than the metric size. This was installed and I tilled up four small gardens, with many rocks, and there was no problem. I am wary that it will recur, but am hopeful that the last ring was a better size or stronger. There is no observable play in the shaft, so it would seem to come down to the retaining ring or its groove being responsible for letting the gear off the shaft. Any other thoughts?