How to figure out property line over hills/woods

[dodge man]

BTW Dave1949, you are a responsible land owner. You paid good money for a survey and are doing a good job maintaining your boundries. I am suprised at how often I do a survey and a few years latter they are calling us again because they didn't maintain the corners and they no longer know where they are.

 

[Steve C]

Hey Steve, why the sarcasm? Having a bad day, there buddy? We all do but attract more bees with honey than vinegar.
Just sayin'.

I must appologize for that if that is the way it is interpeted. I sometimes forget that written communication doesn't carry the subtle voice inflections that spoken words do so when in my head I am thinking it is going to sound one way, the person reading it may read the same words and get a different meaning.

The man is a professional surveyor. If I was having a cup of coffee with him and he said " I've tried to explain to landowners how to mark a straight line over a hill. If they don't mind that it could be several feet off in the middle they can use some of the methods described here."

I would have to tell him that I agree that some of these ideas are not as good as some others and none of them are a professional solution to the problem.

Well then, you have told us that we are doing it wrong, and you have told us that you have told people in the past how to do it right.

Are you going to share that information with us or are you just going to say na na, na na,na
I know and you dont!

If I was speaking to him this it would be said in a light hearted and kidding nature such as 2 old friend kidding each other.

I worked with a couple of brothers, Joe and Ben Garza, who went through the Ferris State Surveyor program. They told me that modern technology and GPS has made the surveyors job so much easier than it was in "the old days" that it is no longer any where near as difficult as it used to be.

I worked on a construction crew to build a very high end 4,500 square foot 4 bedroom 5 bathroom house (the master bath is 14 x 20) with a 3 car attached garage and a 40 x 80 pole barn for the "toys" on a 160 acre estate for a man who is "part" owner of a local survey company. I made the assumption, perhaps in error that the increased productivity and profits due to advancements in technology are what allowed him to live so well. Most of the other businesses in this area are not doing so well.

I see that the local survey crews around here all have gps units mounted on tri-pods. Since I know nothing about surveying (and very little about anything else) I don't know if this is just a local to Michigan or if it is used nation wide. They seem to do a lot less crawling through the swamp than they used to.

I suspect that the men in the field are not sharing the benifits of the increased productivity.

 

[beenthere]

Right on Steve C.

I didn't take your "come on, tell us how to do it right, and don't leave us hangin" response as bad or in poor taste. And you are smack on, when written communication leaves out the tone of voice and the chuckles that are important to good communication. More smileys would help that a lot. (grin)

 

[bp fick]

Hey, SteveC, You're OK.

Say it again, if I am laying out fencing on the interior of my property, that's my business, well, except for calling Miss Dig or whatever your utility company calls it.

A professional land surveyor cannot simply say "do this" or "do that". He establishes points and lines using complex, expensive equipment, figures using complex mathematical formulas, checks and re-checks his trig and calculus over and over and against figuring it a couples ways to be sure. The tools have gotten more sophisticated, but in some ways, the surveyor has to be even smarter and more experienced than ever. Those tools aren't going to take away his role. Finally, it is his PLS or RLS Number that is assigned to the result. His butt's on the line for the accuracy of it.

But when I am laying out expensive fencing? On/near a property line? Or building a barn or any other expensive improvement anywhere near a property line? It is the land owners responsibility to know where the lines are, pure and simple. If I cannot say with certainty to within less than a foot? Call a pro. End of story.

You can be dang sure this old boy would know where those boundaries were before sinking my money and labor into a project. I know where my lines are. Yes sir, Dang right.

 

[dodge man]

A professional land surveyor cannot simply say "do this" or "do that". He establishes points and lines using complex, expensive equipment, figures using complex mathematical formulas, checks and re-checks his trig and calculus over and over and against figuring it a couples ways to be sure. The tools have gotten more sophisticated, but in some ways, the surveyor has to be even smarter and more experienced than ever. Those tools aren't going to take away his role. Finally, it is his PLS or RLS Number that is assigned to the result. His butt's on the line for the accuracy of it.
Hey BP, you aren't a surveyor are you? That was written like one. The only thing wrong is that I haven't done any calculus since I was in college, but the rest is spot on.

 

[Josephm]

All,
I think after reading all of these posts, I have a finalized plan. I think I am going to rent a transit for a few days. Then perform the "wiggle in" method as Dodgeman described.

I will just go to the top where that 10' wide area is and set a stake - just by sight. Then go back to the last stake that is already there, shoot back to the other existing stake and rotate 180. Then, keep moving my new stake until it is in line, and then move on down the river bank, using the same method. I can also go back from the river bank, the opposide direction, and see if I can hit the other starting point on the other side.

I think one thing that is a big advantage for me is that I have 3 stakes behind me to look at, that are on the same bearing according to the plat, and do the 180 references off of those.

Thanks again for everyones help. It is great to have some really smart folks to bounce ideas off of!

Joseph

 

[dodge man]

Thats a good plan. As someone else described, don't turn a 180 degree angle, to many chances to make a mistake if you don't have the experience. Instead "flop" the scope. Just loosen the vertical motion and flop the scope over, you will see what I mean when you get the transit. Make sure you level up the gun good each time also.

 

[Josephm]

Thanks Dodgeman!

 

[Pilot]

Steve C,

He does need to know the horizontal distances. His line will be off to the side by X many feet when he hits his target corner, so he needs to know exactly how far out each point is, in horizontal distance, so he can accurately adjust for his final line. Suppose his property line is half a mile long, 2640 feet, theoretically, but often surveyed ad something different, say 2641.2 feet. As he runs his line over hill and dale, measuring only slope distance, he may record 2683.5 feet total, because slope distances, when laid flat are longer than horizontal distances. He also has error off to the side, maybe 25 feet. Without knowing how far out each point is from the starting point, in horizontal distance you don't know how much to adjust the line for that 25 ft. error off to the side. So you must adjust for slope. And it ain't that hard.

There are certainly circumstances where one should hire a pro. I run the line myself when I have relatively low value land and where the consequences of an error are not great and I am just running from corner to corner. On my property and my neighbor's we have small second growth Douglas-fir; if I cut a tree that turns our to be on his property, triple damages on a $75 tree is less than the cost of a survey, so I'll take the risk. If the stands were large cedars at $1,000 per 1000 board feet, I would hire a pro.

 

[Josephm]

Actually, since the footage of the straight line on the run I need to do is marked on the survey, I can just use some trig to calculate the "offset" line distance, since I already know the value of the correct line and I can measure how far off I am from the stake.

I am hoping that if I am careful, and run from both directions, I can minimize my error, so hopefully an offset won't be much of an issue.