why dont they just put it in Nuetral?

[Reg]

I looked at a couple of Prius on a dealers lot the other day.
I think it would be quite easy for most folk to hold the shift lever forward with the heel of the right hand and extend a finger to hold the power button.
I left before a sales droid had a chance to tell me about great deals or "explain" any alleged (and overblown by the media) problems.

 

[DiskDoctr]

Arrogance. That's why these problems exist. Just like the computer you're using now. The computers (programmers) think they are smarter than the user.

When I press a button, I expect it to take that action, not pause or refuse because it thought it was time to check for automatic windows updates or something stupid

Same with cars. Brakes should stop you, accelerators should make it go. Every time. Every single time. Every single friggin' time!

I have Toyota 4Runner from 2004. Brakes are fine, accelerator doesn't stick. But the thing that bugged me from the beginning is the traction control. If your tires slip, it takes over.

It doesn't just "transfer power from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip" (as the slogan goes), it takes over your engine and locks out the accelerator. I call it "dead stick."

Pulling out uphill in snow from a side road to cross a couple lanes of traffic and hitting the bit of slush piled up between lanes yields and instant 5mph crawl and no gas pedal. Slam it a few times, no-go. A little spin and it would have cleared the slush and crossed the road. Good thing no accident there.

I've suggested a "driver first" override system. If the gas pedal is pushed more than 75% twice in under 3 seconds, return accelerator control to the driver. Reset in 15 secs. But it hasn't happened yet. Simple.

This will be the next Toyota (and others surely) problem, IMHO.

The brakes could have the same kind of override. If the brakes are pressed more than 75% in under 3 seconds AND the accelerator (TPS) is over 50%, on the third press, flash a dash light and put throttle into "limp mode" until the vehicle is restarted.

Of course, with all the ABS, many people have no idea what "pumping the brakes" means

- JC

PS- a switch can disable the traction control on the 4Runner, overriding the computer. It isn't factory, but splicing the right wire does it. If anyone wants to know more about it, let me know.

 

[Runner]

Toyota needs to fire their IT staff and get some new people in there.

I have a Yaris with a 5 speed manual transmission. Never had any throttle sticking issues, but the throttle is "fly-by-wire" computer controlled. The throttle response really sucks. There's a lag between when you push the pedal and when the engine accellerates. There is also a lag when you let off.

This may not be so noticeable in a car with an automatic, but it makes it extremely hard to dirve with a manual, particularly when down shifting. You just can't match the revs from one gear to the next.

Too, bad, because otherwise, I think it's a great engine and would enjoy driving it.

By the way, if my throttle ever does stick, just push in the clutch. Another good reason to drive a manual...

 

[KeithInSpace]

For my part, and as a car guy, I've been increasingly concerned about the overwhelming intrusion of computers into the vehicle.

First came the "drive by wire" transmission shifter.

Then came the throttle.

In some cars (some Toyota and Mercedes-Benz vehicles), there is a "brake by wire" where your pedal isn't physically connected to the hydraulic brake system.

Next will certainly be steer-by-wire.

There was a fully electric Mini Cooper with electric motors built into each of the wheel hubs...insane horsepower...some 400 if I recall. It'd be a hoot to drive, but ALL of the braking was through drag in the motors by increasing the resistance. There was no "brake disc" or ability to add one. Without some type of mechanical braking system, nobody would allow it on the road.

Computers are computers. If my car "crashed" 1/100th the amount that my desktop "crashes", I'd be in deep doo-doo. Actually, the first time my car did something that I didn't "agree" with, I'd sell the stupid thing.

I'm all about progress. Putting super-duper technology in the hands of trained professionals is one thing. To make it available to anyone with a credit score of at least 550 is asking for LOADS of trouble. And it seems someone finally found it.

And along the lines of Mr. DiskDoctr, I strongly belive that any and all electronic aides including stability control, traction control, throttle control, cruise control, launch control, thought control, WHATEVER, should be FULLY AND COMPLETELY defeatable by a simple dash toggle. No 2 second wait. No hitting this button when you turn the key on. Nothing. Buttons on the dash...that's what we need. And for Pete's sake, folks who have the know-how to use them.

 

[JasG]

Arrogance. That's why these problems exist. Just like the computer you're using now. The computers (programmers) think they are smarter than the user.
When I press a button, I expect it to take that action, not pause or refuse because it thought it was time to check for automatic windows updates or something stupid

I've suggested a "driver first" override system. If the gas pedal is pushed more than 75% twice in under 3 seconds, return accelerator control to the driver. Reset in 15 secs. But it hasn't happened yet. Simple.

I do not believe this problem to be a programming problem. I have repaired CNC equipment for over 10 years. The machines I repair use very similar and in some cases the same items, and controls. Not to say it couldn't be programming, but it would happen much more often if it did because most of these cars use the same program. It would also be repeatable.

The accelerator in most cases now is a potentiometer. These just change the voltage coming in vs going out. That voltage difference is what is used for throttle control. These things fail, develop "dead spots", and when this happens the defective item might work fine 99.9 % of the time. The 0.1% it doesn't is when the bad things occur. This could also be caused by a bad ground, a broken wire, bad power supplies, EMF or hundreds of other things. That is why it affects every maker, and no one has found 1 soultion. As these cars use more of this set up, it's only going to get worse.

As far as your override idea, people can't figure out how to put the car in neutral, or shut the car off, but yet remember how many times and what % to tap the brake?

CNC machine all have to have a E-stop. A fail safeway that no matter what happens, it kills the machine dead. These machine have to have this because they can do the unexpected when and electrical anomaly happens. I do wonder why with these type of cars on the road why they don't put a kill switch in the car. Probably because it's not mandated, and no one wants to be seen as unsafe.

 

[RobertN]

This would usually be a comment I would make. But, aren't most of the Toyota's actually made over here to begin with? I mean, I know they are are a Japanese company, but is the Prius and the other affected cars imported, or made in Toyota's southern United States plants?

They said there are some super deals right now on certain models, I myself wouldn't hesitate to drive one if I were ready for a Japanese car. But even though I think this is blown way out of proportion, wouldn't want my wife or kids in one.

Buy American, couldn't come at a better time. Unfortunately I do believe that is a major factor in all this. Not any planned conspiracy but just snowballing out of control news coverage.

JB.

 

[KeithInSpace]

I have a fairly new LG front-load washer and had the service guy come out when it stopped spinning. Turned out the Hall Effect Sensor went bad, so the thing couldn't confirm the drum was spinning, so it just went into an error mode.

Now load you, your wife, and your 2.5 small children into the washer and put all your trust into the Hall Effect Sensor.

Eeesh. Like I said earlier...sometimes progress is cool, but having a cable connecting Point A to Point B wasn't so bad, was it? Well, I guess that cable could fray...

 

[turbo36]

I do not believe this problem to be a programming problem. I have repaired CNC equipment for over 10 years. The machines I repair use very similar and in some cases the same items, and controls. Not to say it couldn't be programming, but it would happen much more often if it did because most of these cars use the same program. It would also be repeatable.

CNC isn't as predictable as you say. I have a Mazak mill with a control problem that after 3 tech's worked on it for almost 2 weeks they still couldn't figure out what was wrong and have referred the problem to the engineers in Japan. That was 3 months ago and they still don't have a answer. The controls today are very complex, couple that with multiple platform operating systems trying to talk to each other and it's almost impossible to predict what could go wrong. :confused2:

 

[carpenter383]

.
...sometimes progress is cool, but having a cable connecting Point A to Point B wasn't so bad, was it? Well, I guess that cable could fray...

Exactly, and if the cable does break the throttle blade snaps back to idle:thumbsup:

 

[dodge man]

You can blame a lot of things for all the computers in cars. Emmisions and fuel economy being the big ones. All and all they are a plus and are one of the reasons they get pretty good horsepower numbers out of fairly small engines. They make cars much more reliable, but I agree with others, when they start to control the car, youv'e got the potential for problems.