L3700SU??

[montelatici]

Believe me, I love Kubota. I own a Kubota and my next tractor will be a Kubota but you can't broadbrush Mahindra just because of an impression of overall industrial quality being lower.

Mahindra has won some significant quality awards.

From their website:

"In its quality journey, the Farm Sector has won the Deming Application Prize in 2003, followed by the Japan Quality Medal in 2007. It is the 20th Company in the world and only the 2nd company in India to achieve this distinction."

http://www.tractorforum.com/f202/who-else-dissatisfied-mahindra-12490/

 

[gaugeguy]

I'm new to the forum and based on the size of my property (20 acres about 1/2 woods) I'm thinking that this is about the size I am looking for. I have about a 1/2 mile of road to maintain, gravel to move, stumps to pull and brush to clear.

I prices a L3700SU at 2 local dealers in Spokane, WA area and I think they are both a little high......

L3700SU $19,250 filled tires and delivered. Fiberglass Canopy for ROPS $475.00 and a Land Pride #RBT1572 72" Rear Blade W/ Tilt and Angle.

Does this seem to far out of range? I guess that I'd like to support the local guy but I dont want to get taken too.

 

[VT6Kubota]

http://www.tractorforum.com/f202/who-else-dissatisfied-mahindra-12490/

I have a friend who bought an Indian made motorcycle several years ago, his story is very much like the tractor ones on the other site.

 

[VT6Kubota]

I'm new to the forum and based on the size of my property (20 acres about 1/2 woods) I'm thinking that this is about the size I am looking for. I have about a 1/2 mile of road to maintain, gravel to move, stumps to pull and brush to clear.

I prices a L3700SU at 2 local dealers in Spokane, WA area and I think they are both a little high......

L3700SU $19,250 filled tires and delivered. Fiberglass Canopy for ROPS $475.00 and a Land Pride #RBT1572 72" Rear Blade W/ Tilt and Angle.

Does this seem to far out of range? I guess that I'd like to support the local guy but I dont want to get taken too.

Maybe we should just repeat the $15.7k story from the beginning of this thread to our respective dealers and see what their reaction is. :laughing:

does the $19,250 price include the blade? we have Kubota Dealers around every corner here so I think they are pretty competitive with each other, plus it seems the cost of everything in Vermont and our sister state of Washington may be a bit more than the rest of the country in general.

 

[gaugeguy]

Maybe we should just repeat the $15.7k story from the beginning of this thread to our respective dealers and see what their reaction is. :laughing:

does the $19,250 price include the blade? we have Kubota Dealers around every corner here so I think they are pretty competitive with each other, plus it seems the cost of everything in Vermont and our sister state of Washington may be a bit more than the rest of the country in general.

Yes, the $19,250 does include the loader/bucket.

 

[peterc38]

http://www.tractorforum.com/f202/who-else-dissatisfied-mahindra-12490/

Ok, so you found some disatisfied Mahindra owners, wow. You could say the same about any brand even Kubota.

Again, I'm not trying to say they are better than Kubota or not. Obviously based on my previous statements I am a Kubota guy.

I stand by what I said, if you had learned anything about the criteria for winning those awards in your capacity of oversight for industrial cooperation agreements, you would know they don't give those awards out to just anyone.

Deming in particular and his predecessor Walter Shewhart are 2 of the pioneers of quality methodologies of japanese industry and indeed even worldwide.

Sorry to have presented an opposing viewpoint to your own.

 

[montelatici]

Ok, so you found some disatisfied Mahindra owners, wow. You could say the same about any brand even Kubota.

A whole thread with user after user expressing disppointment?

[/QUOTE]
I stand by what I said, if you had learned anything about the criteria for winning those awards in your capacity of oversight for industrial cooperation agreements, you would know they don't give those awards out to just anyone.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, those awards are sometimes very "political", particularly with the Indians. If you read the defense procurement regulations in India they appear as sophisticated (and fair) as those in the most developed nations. When you see what happens in practice, you realize that they have just copied regulations and go about procuring defense products in the corrupt manner they are used to. Same in the quality department, great policies and procedures, but little adherence to them in reality. Sorry, I have been there, done that.

 

[arrow]

So, you can see why I have to totally disagree with your experience, at least in my area.

I do not think you can disagree with my experience as it was my experience. There are other ways of stating this differential that may be a bit more clear.

 

[arrow]

I think you can compare a other Japanese or even Korean made tractors to Kubota, but to compare a Mahindra to a Kubota is nonsense.

I travel at least once a year to India and oversee some industrial cooperation agreements and the overall industrial quality level in India is lower than China. In a decade or so they may catch up but right now there is no comparison.

The Mahindra tractors I looked at were made in Korea.

 

[montelatici]

The Mahindra tractors I looked at were made in Korea.

In that case they were Tong Yang tractors rebadged by Mahindra. I understand that Mahindra added them because Mahindra don't make tractors in certain popular sizes/power/features and could not have a complete line on their own. When inevitably, Mahindra changes supplier, you have to wonder if they will be as good as John Deere is at continuing to support those tractors.

 

[arrow]

In that case they were Tong Yang tractors rebadged by Mahindra. I understand that Mahindra added them because Mahindra don't make tractors in certain popular sizes/power/features and could not have a complete line on their own. When inevitably, Mahindra changes supplier, you have to wonder if they will be as good as John Deere is at continuing to support those tractors.

That is certainly one of the advantages of buying Kubota. I do not think it is worth $2000 but I could be wrong. I have an 85 John Deere cut that I am currently running into the same problem with as parts are almost non existent for the 750. Personally, I have trouble with al the pricing on these cuts. For what a medium size cut cost, you can buy an entire car for brand new. The tractor has no glass, no upolstry to speak of, no where near the complicated drive train, limited electronics so the only thing that can even begin to justify the price is the longevity of the tractor with not too much maintenance and the frequency of purchase which is quite low for most people. My John Deere cost $9300 with fel. Today that cost has doubled to replace the tractor. I realize it is a supply and demand thing and not as large a rip off as college tuition and bottled water however I cannot justify the mark up currently on the L3400 series as a simple geared tractor and will not pay almost 20 grand for one for what it is.

 

[montelatici]

That is certainly one of the advantages of buying Kubota. I do not think it is worth $2000 but I could be wrong. I have an 85 John Deere cut that I am currently running into the same problem with as parts are almost non existent for the 750. Personally, I have trouble with al the pricing on these cuts. For what a medium size cut cost, you can buy an entire car for brand new. The tractor has no glass, no upolstry to speak of, no where near the complicated drive train, limited electronics so the only thing that can even begin to justify the price is the longevity of the tractor with not too much maintenance and the frequency of purchase which is quite low for most people. My John Deere cost $9300 with fel. Today that cost has doubled to replace the tractor. I realize it is a supply and demand thing and not as large a rip off as college tuition and bottled water however I cannot justify the mark up currently on the L3400 series as a simple geared tractor and will not pay almost 20 grand for one for what it is.

The L3400 (or L3700SU) with HST and FEL sells for less than 20K. A 20K car does not have all the heavy duty hydraulic pumps (in the case of the L series separate power steering systems) and cylinders, huge tires (compared to car ties), thick gauge steel all-around, sophisticated diesel engines (diesel model cars are usually 10-15% more expensive than gasoline powered cars). etc.

 

[ovrszd]

The L3400 (or L3700SU) with HST and FEL sells for less than 20K. A 20K car does not have all the heavy duty hydraulic pumps (in the case of the L series separate power steering systems) and cylinders, huge tires (compared to car ties), thick gauge steel all-around, sophisticated diesel engines (diesel model cars are usually 10-15% more expensive than gasoline powered cars). etc.

I have to agree with arrow on this one. We would be shocked and angered if we knew the profit markup on a Kubota tractor or any other brand for that matter.

However I don't agree with your reasoning as to why the cost is that high. Technology adds cost at a higher rate than pounds of steel. And as for the engine/powertrain, a tractor powertrain is a dinosaur compared to an automobile and doesn't face near the scrutiny for performance or eco-friendly operation. For example, it's impossible to make a factory equipped diesel car or truck smoke. My Kubota smokes everytime you crank it or increase rpm with load. If diesel autos/trucks had similar cleanliness systems you wouldn't be able to drive behind them for the smoke screen.

 

[DiezNutz]

If diesel autos/trucks had similar cleanliness systems you wouldn't be able to drive behind them for the smoke screen.

You mean like my old VW Diesel Rabbit Pickup? :laughing: Granted, I did "turn up" the injection pump... WOT kept tailgaters to a minimum.

I do have to throw in there that tractor tires are not cheap by comparison.

 

[montelatici]

I have to agree with arrow on this one. We would be shocked and angered if we knew the profit markup on a Kubota tractor or any other brand for that matter.

However I don't agree with your reasoning as to why the cost is that high. Technology adds cost at a higher rate than pounds of steel. And as for the engine/powertrain, a tractor powertrain is a dinosaur compared to an automobile and doesn't face near the scrutiny for performance or eco-friendly operation. For example, it's impossible to make a factory equipped diesel car or truck smoke. My Kubota smokes everytime you crank it or increase rpm with load. If diesel autos/trucks had similar cleanliness systems you wouldn't be able to drive behind them for the smoke screen.

Actually, technology reduces cost substantially. Adjusted for inflation, cars cost less today than in the 1930s for example:

"From 1935 to 2007 vehicle prices rose 2.7% average annually. For the last 20 years during 1987 to 2007 prices have only risen an average of 0.9% per year.


Looking at individual decades the annual rates were:
1940's 6.8%
1950's 2.3%
1960's 0.3%
1970's 5.2%
1980's 3.2%
1990's 1.4%
2000's -0.4%

Yes prices are actually going down this decade. That is a reflection of people buying smaller and more affordable vehicles."

Free By 50: History of new car costs and average inflation

I don't know that Kubota's "profit margins" are any higher or lower than a Japanese auto manufacturer. Maybe you have inside information.

 

[ovrszd]

Actually, technology reduces cost substantially. quote]

What I meant was the more technological equipment on the vehicle the more it costs to produce and thus brings a higher selling price. A Grand Kubota for example.

I don't have any inside info about profit margins. But a couple years ago I listened to the CEO (can't remember his name) of Ford Motor Company and the Grandson of Henry Ford being interviewed about profits and sales preferences. When they were asked why Ford seemed to push their truck line more than their lunchbox cars the CEO said the profit on a top end Super Duty was $20K. On the other side of that the profit on a Ford Focus was $500. He asked the interviewer which one he would rather produce and sell? That meant to this dumb hick that technology truly adds to the cost of what I buy.

 

[montelatici]

Actually, technology reduces cost substantially. quote]

What I meant was the more technological equipment on the vehicle the more it costs to produce and thus brings a higher selling price. A Grand Kubota for example.

I don't have any inside info about profit margins. But a couple years ago I listened to the CEO (can't remember his name) of Ford Motor Company and the Grandson of Henry Ford being interviewed about profits and sales preferences. When they were asked why Ford seemed to push their truck line more than their lunchbox cars the CEO said the profit on a top end Super Duty was $20K. On the other side of that the profit on a Ford Focus was $500. He asked the interviewer which one he would rather produce and sell? That meant to this dumb hick that technology truly adds to the cost of what I buy.

If by "technological equipment" you mean more "options" then yes, it will add to the manufacturing cost because of additional parts content and assembly labor.

Whether this higher cost leads to a higher percentage of margin, I don't know.

If you mean technology, then no. For example, the control computer/processor in a car that controls all the electrical/electronics on board is probably far less costly to build and install during assembly than the myriad of relays and switches that were used before. Today's monocoque assemblies are far less costly than body on frame systems. Ever price a Toyota Land Cruiser these days? About 80 grand while a monocoque Highlander is less than half that.

 

[arrow]

The L3400 (or L3700SU) with HST and FEL sells for less than 20K. A 20K car does not have all the heavy duty hydraulic pumps (in the case of the L series separate power steering systems) and cylinders, huge tires (compared to car ties), thick gauge steel all-around, sophisticated diesel engines (diesel model cars are usually 10-15% more expensive than gasoline powered cars). etc.

Doesn't add up for me Monte. There are suspension geometries a car must have to corner at speed. Sophisticated steering controls, multi step painting processes and on and on. Front tires on my wife's PT Cruiser cost a half again more than the ags on the front of my JD. When I had an association with Chrysler I was privy to some info such as a 1997 Dodge Intrepid costing $9800 to build. $1800 were for labor cost leaving roughly $7000 in material cost. This car had a sticker of $21000 to $24000. Thickness of metal has little to do with cost as metal is sold by weight. You would have a better argument with me if you had stated that if cars were sold at the rate of tractors, they would have to cost way more but material for material, the car wins hands down for what you get money wise. It is our adult desire that has led to the inflated pricing of c.u.t.s as one cannot substantiate their pricing on materials alone. They are simple beasts that also do not have to contend with any where near the advertising costs of autos or the built in litigation price profiles in cars. As a matter of fact, I've just talked myself in thinking a L3400 is worth no more than $12500 and that's with a fel. Ok, maybe $14500 tops. Looks like I'll never own one.

 

[Chilly807]

As with most things, it's what the market will support. Cost of any commodity is directly related to supply and demand, and in the North American marketplace in particular, desire for ownership.

"I don't care what it costs, I want one.." Never sweeter words to a dealer's ears..

I do believe costs have come down in relation to value, however. I can buy a new Honda Civic (middle model) now for less than I paid for a Saturn with same equipment 8 years ago. What's with that?

Sean

 

[arrow]

"I don't care what it costs, I want one.."



Sean

This is the mantra of the modern day man that started with yuppies and continued with crediteers of the next generations. I just came from Cape Cod. Went to a little breakfast place in Wellsfleet. Ordered 2 pancakes and an 8 oz glass of oj. With tax, the bill for these items came to $13.60. Here the same thing costs me $4.50. People are in vacation mode and your statement cannot ring any truer. We are suckers for anything that makes it seem ok that we want what we want. 0% financing, 5 years to pay, etc made for quick sales. What if we went back to the concept of "if I do not have the money, I can't get it" Then it would be the consumer who is controlling the shots. What do you think the price of these cuts would be if the manufacturers had to wait for the consumer to save up for one of their tractors? What better way to inflate a price than to give the consumer money to pay for it right now instead of the other way around and be sure of payback with "your credit score will suffer if you do not pay on time" is like the old "you'll go to **** if you don't go to church"