Getting educated about gasoline...

[Diamondpilot]

How do you figure you are paying more?



No it doesn't. Current returns are ~1.6 times. Considering much of the input energy is not usable motor fuel the real yield would be quite a bit higher than that.

Not to get off on a far tangent here but I have a Bio-Diesel plant 3.5 miles from my home. I have a 300 gallon farm tank so I loaded it on my trailer and was on my way to the Co-Op to go get it filled with #2 diesel. The thought came to me to stop at the Bio Plant and see if I could buy from the. The answer was no but the plant manager gave me a hard hat and a tour. This was in 2007 when Diesel was $4.25 per gallon or more.

Anyway, he told me 85% of what was made here in Indiana ended up in Germany and other European Countries where diesel was $9 per gallon. It was loaded on trucks and driven to New York area 8,000 gallons at a time and shipped overseas. He said by the time it gets to its destination they had about $8.00 to $8.50 per gallon in it. There was a government incentive that was somewhere in the $2 to $3 per gallon range ( I can not remember ), but if it were not for that they could not make a profit.

So yes, our smart government is so eager to put people to work that they are willing to lose money. Crazy.:confused2:

Chris

 

[jonyyuma]

Hi Diamond, Your info about bio-fuel comes as no surprize, as to going to Germany. It was widely thought and spoken here that, the oil from the Alaska pipe line was going directly to Japan. I worked at the local refinery here for a spell. Memphis also has a large depot for gasoiline storage from barges..Japan was willing to pay more for the oil, than the Saudi-Arab mix bought now. I do not know if it is still true now? The ethanol game smells bad to me, they use Corn, and could use grasses instead. More money in corn, now they want burn more so they up the content in gasoline, which gets less mileage?

 

[Duffster]

Not to get off on a far tangent here but I have a Bio-Diesel plant 3.5 miles from my home. I have a 300 gallon farm tank so I loaded it on my trailer and was on my way to the Co-Op to go get it filled with #2 diesel. The thought came to me to stop at the Bio Plant and see if I could buy from the. The answer was no but the plant manager gave me a hard hat and a tour. This was in 2007 when Diesel was $4.25 per gallon or more.

Anyway, he told me 85% of what was made here in Indiana ended up in Germany and other European Countries where diesel was $9 per gallon. It was loaded on trucks and driven to New York area 8,000 gallons at a time and shipped overseas. He said by the time it gets to its destination they had about $8.00 to $8.50 per gallon in it. There was a government incentive that was somewhere in the $2 to $3 per gallon range ( I can not remember ), but if it were not for that they could not make a profit.

So yes, our smart government is so eager to put people to work that they are willing to lose money. Crazy.:confused2:


Chris

Unless they got some extra start up money or something the incentive is nowhere near $2-$3.

 

[Duffster]

Hi Diamond, Your info about bio-fuel comes as no surprize, as to going to Germany. It was widely thought and spoken here that, the oil from the Alaska pipe line was going directly to Japan. I worked at the local refinery here for a spell. Memphis also has a large depot for gasoiline storage from barges..Japan was willing to pay more for the oil, than the Saudi-Arab mix bought now. I do not know if it is still true now? The ethanol game smells bad to me, they use Corn, and could use grasses instead. More money in corn, now they want burn more so they up the content in gasoline, which gets less mileage?

Ya, grass will work. :laughing:

 

[Diamondpilot]

Unless they got some extra start up money or something the incentive is nowhere near $2-$3.

This was 3 years ago and like I said I can not remember the number but I did know at the time it was more money to buy Bio-Diesel than it was to buy strait Diesel. The plant was brand new so maybe they were getting some start up break but either way it was a money loosing venture until the government stepped in and gave them some of yours and my money.

Even now when I order my fuel from the Co-Op they ask me if I want bio or not. They can mix it in 2%, 5%, 10%, 20%, and strait. Last time I got fuel about a month ago it was $.02 extra per point for Bio For example, B10 was $.20 per gallon extra over strait.

Chris

 

[Big Wave D]

Is it worth the premium for getting some Bio mixed in with your ULSD for the lubrication that it brings to the table?


Or, is the whole ULSD and it being hard on older diesels an old wive's tale?

Thoughts???......

 

[clemsonfor]

I've been reading a lot of threads on this board lately that deal with gas and seemingly how 'pathetic' our modern fuels are. They seem to be able to kill one's chainsaw or weed-eater by just being in the same vicinity.

So I appeal to the great mind trust on TBN for some education about the fuel we call "gas".

In my life, we went from Leaded to Unleaded, and I know the lead helped with engines running cooler. Then smog became a big issue and they started adding 'ingredients' to help with cleaner burning. Some were bad for groundwater polluting so we went Greener (Ethanol) for various reasons: helped the farmers, renewable, didn't pollute, etc...

Seems like A LOT of people LOATH ethanol being added to their fuel. What started around 5% or less is steadily growing to 15% or more. So I now read of people wanting to buy AvGas 100LL to use in their small engines, even at $4+ a gallon. They seem to think this a fare trade-off.

Now, I was always under the impression that gas would degrade to varnish over time, but some posts seem to indicate that that isn't necessarily true. So, if that is the case, what is in modern gas aside from Ethanol that makes it "crap" and what additives are breaking down and causing all of these carburetor problems with the gumming up off all the small orifices inside these small engines carbs.

Last thing. For this discussion, I'm not even going to touch the whole diesel debate on ULSD and Biodiesel. If you all can educate me about the Gas issue, I'd greatly appreciate your help in me bettering my understandings of fuel and how it can contribute to the health or destruction of my engines.

Thanks to all in advance

Ethonol will absorb water, think the alcohol in drygas or fuel treatment to get rid of water in gas it bonds to the water so that your engine can burn it. That said ethonol will absorb more water that gas or MTBE for its volume than pure gas. I know gas really dosent mix with water. This extra water is hard on 2 strokes it lowers your octane, water has not rating. This heavy water soluble fuel settles to the bottom and you burn cleaner fuel off the top of the tank and when you get to the bottom in your boat, or something that is not shaken that much (unlike a weedeter or chain saw, and they get filled often anyway), but your boat may have had 89 octane at first but as the condensation is drawn into the fuel and moisture from humid climates it settles in the fuel to the bottom and then when you get to the bottom of the tank the 10% ethonol fuel you bought may be more like 10% ethonol and 5-10% water and the rest gas, this no longer is 89 octane but maybe 85 octane. You get detonation and then cracked pistons or burned up ones, alcohol burns hotter than gas.

This new fuel with increased water has nasty crystals that form with all the moisture in it. Im no expert but this is what they say, i have had some carbs and crarp from the ethonol fuel in my stuff as well, built or dissassembled and cleaned almost all my small carbs in the last 18 months.

 

[whistlepig]

I totally disagree with this. While it may cause some deposits on spark plugs it the benefits are worth it for me to run in mall my 2 stroke stuff. For me that is a Weed Eater, Leaf Blower, Snow Blower, and a Chain Saw. Yes, it cost a few $$$$ more but I only use about 5 gallons of it a year and it about $1 more per gallon so its cheaper than a new $80 carb like I had to replace on a 3 year old Snow Blower.

In Indiana where I live all fuels used on Road must contain 10% ethanol. The only places that can sell non ethanol fuels are marinas, airports, and co-op's. Same is true for diesel, all must contain 5% bio. This became law 2 years ago.

The best thing you can do for all 4 stroke engines is spend $20 at WalMart and get Sta-Bil Marine Fuel Stabilizer. Its not the red stuff, that is junk. This is a black color and is formulated for ethanol blended fuels. I run it in all my 4 stroke stuff except my truck. 2 boats, riding mower, and generator. One $20 container treats over 300 gallons so its very affordable.

Chris

I agree with Diamondpilot on this one. If you think the stuff coming out of the pumps now is better than the leaded 100 octane gas that was available decades ago you may have missed something. I can remember a time when we bought fuel that would protect the engine. These days you have to buy an engine that can protect itself from the fuel. And we pay more for both. All for the enviroment I guess.

 

[clemsonfor]

I totally disagree with this. While it may cause some deposits on spark plugs it the benefits are worth it for me to run in mall my 2 stroke stuff. For me that is a Weed Eater, Leaf Blower, Snow Blower, and a Chain Saw. Yes, it cost a few $$$$ more but I only use about 5 gallons of it a year and it about $1 more per gallon so its cheaper than a new $80 carb like I had to replace on a 3 year old Snow Blower.

In Indiana where I live all fuels used on Road must contain 10% ethanol. The only places that can sell non ethanol fuels are marinas, airports, and co-op's. Same is true for diesel, all must contain 5% bio. This became law 2 years ago.

The best thing you can do for all 4 stroke engines is spend $20 at WalMart and get Sta-Bil Marine Fuel Stabilizer. Its not the red stuff, that is junk. This is a black color and is formulated for ethanol blended fuels. I run it in all my 4 stroke stuff except my truck. 2 boats, riding mower, and generator. One $20 container treats over 300 gallons so its very affordable.

Chris

I though marine stabil was blue, wht do i know i have not bought any

 

[clemsonfor]

I can buy pure gas in all octanes at 3 stations near me, maybe more. Its only like 5 cents more a gallon. Several other stations have pure 93 octane cause of the lake nearby. All this fuel comes out of the tank farm in N. Augusta, SC.

Side note on E85. My work truck is flex fuel. and we are suppose to use it whenever its avialible. I work for the gov and its part of the green thing so they can say were helping. My truck on either E10 or pure fuel will get at bet 15 mpg usuall 14. When i have drained my tank to the last 2 gallons and filled up with E85 i get about 10 mpg. The times i bought e85 was when fuel was about $2.39/gallon. Once i paid more for the e-85 and once i paid the same as E10 fuel. so i paid the same price to get 30% less mpg?? Oh yea this is a smart program for us to be paying more tax dollars to use a green fuel than regular fuel. Anyway E-85 rises and falls to just dosent go as high and has a bottom usually that is higher than real gas. This is cause fuel is tied to its produciton with the use of trators etc. Anyway i think you would have to have about 40% less of a price to justify E85.

E85 also burns hotter creating increased cylinder pressures etc.