Fullsize V-6 Pickup Comparison

[Diamondpilot]

Taking the cab off is for speed, not necessity in most cases and actually results in a better quality repair. Ford is not the only one doing it and not the first, by a long shot.

2 summers ago I was overseeing work on my Dads Corvette while he was at his other home in San Diego. We were having about $6,000 worth of work done to it. Anyway they had 3 Dmax trucks in there all with cabs off for repairs. So like you said, its not just Ford.

Chris

 

[Raspy]

ModMech,

I just have to disagree.

The 6.0 Ford was a disaster. It led to a lawsuit with Navistar because Ford wanted them to share in the cost of the huge warrantee problems. When Ford refused to pay Navistar in order to recoup some of the costs, Navistar stopped production. The result was a law suit and a court order to keep producing the engines. This problem was not from aftermarket tuners, but from Fords cost cutting, poor quality and the relentless HP race. The cabs had to be removed to fix stuff like injectors and it wasn't done to make the job go faster. It adds 10 to 12 hours to the repair to R&R the cabs and they did a lot of them. They also bought a lot of them back.

Now the 6.7 is being touted by Ford as the latest and greatest, and it might be, but time will tell. Meanwhile they are using Diesel exhaust fluid to meet emission requirements.

Bottom line is there are a lot of well documented problems with Ford engines and they were not suited to the body that Ford had available. They have gone from the 6.9 to the 7.3 to the 6.0 to the 6.4 to the 6.7. Out of all of them the 7.3 seems to be the best, but slow. Meanwhile Dodge has simply refined the 5.9 Cummins and had the luxury of designing two body generations around it. The Cummins a third fewer parts and are all cast iron. They can actually be worked on by simply reaching in and the new 6.7 (bored and stroked 5.9) does not use exhaust fluid to meet the smog requirements.

Ford knows how to make stuff, but they continuously cheapen stuff to the failure point and, once out of warrantee, let the cost fall on the owner of a bad design. They have been under a lot of pressure to come up with their own, in house, diesel after the recent problems that they created. So, let time tell if the new ones are good or not. But I won't be spending my money on their experiments.

Most buyers seem to just be loyal to Ford and don't care about doing any research. I have a friend that just bought a brand new one. I asked him about the risk and the exhaust fluid and his response was, "it's got 400 Horsepower and that's way more than a Cummins". I know two other guys that make their living with Ford diesels, or are trying to. One is suing Ford and the other is just very patient with all the problems. They've both lost a lot of money. Another guy was curious why there were so many Ford cabs sitting around at a local dealer. The answer was they were working on the engines and had to pull them off. Others have complained about squeaks and rattles after the cab R&R. Another trip to the dealer to fix that.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[RobertN]

I am a big Cummins fan.

I can tell you though, I had to change my lift pump. There was no simple reaching in. For a straight six, in a larger engine compartment, that was a pain in the patootsie! I had to get my arm in to all kinds of contortions to get that pump changed. And mine is an '01, which I suspect has better room than the newer ones(just a guess, but...).

Out of all of them the 7.3 seems to be the best, but slow. Meanwhile Dodge has simply refined the 5.9 Cummins and had the luxury of designing two body generations around it. The Cummins a third fewer parts and are all cast iron. They can actually be worked on by simply reaching in and the new 6.7 (bored and stroked 5.9) does not use exhaust fluid to meet the smog requirements.

 

[ModMech]

ModMech,

I just have to disagree.

The 6.0 Ford was a disaster. It led to a lawsuit with Navistar because Ford wanted them to share in the cost of the huge warrantee problems. When Ford refused to pay Navistar in order to recoup some of the costs, Navistar stopped production. The result was a law suit and a court order to keep producing the engines. This problem was not from aftermarket tuners, but from Fords cost cutting, poor quality and the relentless HP race. The cabs had to be removed to fix stuff like injectors and it wasn't done to make the job go faster. It adds 10 to 12 hours to the repair to R&R the cabs and they did a lot of them. They also bought a lot of them back.

As most TBN'ers know, I drive Fords, let's be completely forthcomming about that.

What most don't know, is I have far more information on the 6.0L and in fact all of the Power Stroke engines than most - even the mechaincs.

The 6.9L was better than anything else available at the time in a pickup and even a decent MD engine but not suited for long highway drives in them. The 7.3L was a BIG improvement, more HP and Tq and none of the problems that the 6.9L had (leaks etc). The Cummins "B" of that day, well there was nothing better in terms of durability or mileage.... unitl the 7.3L PSD. The PSD started the HP race, it made more HP and more Tq than the Cummins but not the economy. I can assure you, the 7.3L PSDs were NOT slow especially compared to the competition of the day.

The 6.0L replaced the 7.3L and there is no doubt, it does not enjoy the good repuation that the 7.3L does. The '02/3 6.0L was pretty good, a few injector issues early and turbo actuators but overall, not bad for the first year. The '04/5s, well not so good. They again had injector and fuel system problems. By 2006, according to Ford, the 6.0L was the lowest warranty cost per engine product in the USA.

The 6.4L was better than the 7.3L and even moreso than the 6.0L and is still proving to be very reliable, but not particularly efficient.

Now, you say that removing the cab adds a lot of time to a repair, hmmm, have you ever done it? It doesn't take much more than 3 to 4 hours, depending on the tech, to R&R a body. I really don't know where the 10-12 hours came from, other than an inept mechanic.

Once the cab is off, you have TOTAL access to the engine, jobs that would be 8 hours with the cab on are now doable in fewer than 5 with less risk of an error because you can work cleanly. Now, if it were my truck and someone said "Hey, we can remove your cab and do an excellant job including careful inspection of our work or leave it on and pray", you better KNOW which I would choose!

Bottom line is there are a lot of well documented problems with Ford engines and they were not suited to the body that Ford had available. They have gone from the 6.9 to the 7.3 to the 6.0 to the 6.4 to the 6.7. Out of all of them the 7.3 seems to be the best, but slow.

Really? Name them. Obviously you have never driven a fully loaded E350 7.3L PSD against a fully loaded E350 with a 460 or 6.8L, or a G3500 with a 6.5L turbo. I have operataed a LOT of 7.3L PSDs and 5.9L Cummins mills, until the advent of the 24V Cummins B, Dodge boys were being passed by everything.

Meanwhile Dodge has simply refined the 5.9 Cummins and had the luxury of designing two body generations around it. The Cummins a third fewer parts and are all cast iron. They can actually be worked on by simply reaching in and the new 6.7 (bored and stroked 5.9) does not use exhaust fluid to meet the smog requirements.

Hmm, refined? Like the VP-44 and Killer Dowel Pins? How about the failed #1 injectors Cummins refused to warrant that trashed the cylinders? How many HGs have I replaced in Cummins "B"s, dozens, maybe a hundred.

BTW, for the record, the Ram with a 6.7L DOES use SCR (urea), but not in every model of truck.

Ford can prove the "tooners" are the major responsible party for in-warranty major failures. At one time, Ford was revolking the warranty on over 1,000 trucks per month because of these tooners.

Oh, yes the LAWSUIT. Did you care to read the findings of the Judge? He thru it out, case closed Ford go home. You see, Ford KNEW it was the tooners and maintenance issues that were the biggest problem with the HEUI fuel system and tried to lay the blame on their vendor, they shot craps. Navistar also sued Ford and won, but that's a story for another thread.

 

[RobertN]

Well, now that we are definitely off topic(V6?)...

For all the +/- of motors, one thing that sticks out to me, is I have not seen much in the way of the various Power Strokes or Duramax's in other vehicles.

I have though, seen Cummins transplants in various Ford and Chevy trucks that were originally gas motor pickups. I have also seen the F250 PS replacement with Cummins motors.

Even in 'Oz, they take the 4 cylinder Cummins from bread/delivery trucks, to put in Landcruisers.

I have operataed a LOT of 7.3L PSDs and 5.9L Cummins mills, until the advent of the 24V Cummins B, Dodge boys were being passed by everything.

Hmm, refined? Like the VP-44 and Killer Dowel Pins? How about the failed #1 injectors Cummins refused to warrant that trashed the cylinders? How many HGs have I replaced in Cummins "B"s, dozens, maybe a hundred.

 

[_RaT_]

I like the old Cummins as well. If they kept the old 12 valve, got the noise down to the current levels and of course, had it in a more updated cab (just never got into the Dodge cab) and kept the same old power #'s/fuel economy, they would have me. I simply don't care about being passed by bigger, more powerful diesels but then, I don't feel I have to compensate for anything either! :laughing: I am still driving my old anemic 1993 Terd 7.3L non turbo, IDI with a major saggy front end. I'm looking for a used truck and will donate mine when the time comes. This Ford replaced my 1963 GMC so as you can see, I'm not one to give up on a vehicle quickly.

I am a big Cummins fan.

I can tell you though, I had to change my lift pump. There was no simple reaching in. For a straight six, in a larger engine compartment, that was a pain in the patootsie! I had to get my arm in to all kinds of contortions to get that pump changed. And mine is an '01, which I suspect has better room than the newer ones(just a guess, but...).

 

[Egon]

What most don't know, is I have far more information on the 6.0L and in fact all of the Power Stroke engines than most - even the mechaincs.

Hmmm??

Now me, I don't know much about engines so way back in 96 I asked the heavy Duty Mechaincs what 3/4 ton I should buy. They all said Dodge with the Cumins. And that's what I did and I'm still happy!:thumbsup:

 

[ModMech]

Hmmm??

Now me, I don't know much about engines so way back in 96 I asked the heavy Duty Mechaincs what 3/4 ton I should buy. They all said Dodge with the Cumins. And that's what I did and I'm still happy!:thumbsup:

Nothin wrong with their advice, not at all

 

[Renze]

Ford knows how to make stuff, but they continuously cheapen stuff to the failure point and, once out of warrantee, let the cost fall on the owner of a bad design.

Same here, my dads 2001 Ford Mondeo was cheap to buy as a used car, but he's jealous of the low maintenance cost of my 1998 S70 TDI... He spends more than 1500 euro per year on maintenance where i havent spent anything yet...
Of the mondeo, doors rot (luckily the paint is the same black as bituminous underbody coating ) shocks fail prematurely, brakes go, and injector pumps fail. Oh, and the starter fails because there is no hole in the bellhousing for it to loose any clutch wear dust, so it seized the starter...
Overall i'm not impressed with Fords cost cuttings... I wont buy a Volvo S40 or V50 either because they are based on a Ford Focus: The Dutch police used 850's and V70's for years, but after their recent Ford based V50's brake pads turned on fire after heavy braking in police chases, they trade them all for VW's...

 

[Dargo]

I am a big Cummins fan.

I can tell you though, I had to change my lift pump. There was no simple reaching in. For a straight six, in a larger engine compartment, that was a pain in the patootsie! I had to get my arm in to all kinds of contortions to get that pump changed. And mine is an '01, which I suspect has better room than the newer ones(just a guess, but...).

Yup, me too. I absolutely laugh my rear off when self professed experts start spouting off about all the problems the 12v Cummins engines had. The advent of the internet and a few dowel pins dropping into the timing gears created a whole panic. LOL!! By the time I sold my '96 Cummins I'd added twins to it, BHAF, head studs, 435 injectors, ringed the head and was not defueling it until nearly 6000 RPM! Running the snot out of it for years that about the only issues I had was keeping a transmission behind it!

I had a couple of 7.3 PSD trucks and I am completely unimpressed with that engine. Besides always having "issues", I've never seen any group of engines that pour engine oil on the ground like they do! Since I spent a small fortune concreting my driveway, nobody I know is allowed to drive their 7.3 PSD down my driveway because of all the oil they pour out! If you want to say "what about the '6 leaker'," I'll just laugh at you. My '06 F350 runs in the low 12's in the quarter mile, pulls loads well over it's rating on a consistent basis and it's never leaked a drop on my driveway since I had some skirt gasket fixed under warranty when I bought it about 2 and a half years ago.

If they keep things up with twin turbos on the 6 bangers, most people driving diesels won't even need their diesels unless they just like the sound (and there's plenty like that). After all, the good old 12v Cummins only has 6 cylinders. Now that I think about it, my motor coach only has 6 cylinders in it's Cat C9 engine as well. I don't have any power issues with it either.