looking at a 09 superduty 6.4L powerstroke

[Builder]

I'm really disgusted in how rusted my 6 year old dodge is. I have only put about 30k miles on it since I bought it in Ohio about 3 years ago and due to its winter road manners, this winter was the first I was using it on a daily basis. Previously it was driven only on weekends or in summer. It also has a truck cap, so the bed and inside of the tailgate have been dry.

Unless I am mistaken, it is the only truck to be built in Mexico. Ford and GM build theirs in the US. I think that either the steel is exposed before it is painted or the painting process is sub par (sheet metal design may also be defective) or most likely Dodge doesn't use zinked steel. It does introduce complications welding zink plated steel, primarily maintenance of the resistance welding electrodes, but thats what you have to do if you want to build cars that go a while without rusting.

The problem is that it will take a long time to prove that dodge has solved the problem and until I see proof that something is different I am voting with my wallet and feet. Rusty cars have been solved. There is no need to support a manufacturer who will not support his customers investment with such basic technology. My Audi had a 12 year corrosion warranty and was driven every day of its life in the same conditions and when I traded it after it reached 10 years it did not have a single spot of rust and even still had the original exhaust.

Intersting because a friend I just had over to our home last night owns a big auto body shop and he explained to me how the Mexican plants turned out better paint jobs. He said because their version of the "EPA" or "DEP" was much more relaxed and the plants were much more state of the art which allowed vehicles to be better painted.

 

[slowzuki]

Up here we are heavily salted, the rust here depends on the service of the truck. Dinged up work trucks start rusting sooner. I don't think I've ever seen one get to 10 years rust free without lots of preventative care.

 

[westcliffe01]

Have your friend name one of the cars that is better painted and I will look for used models here to see how they are doing. There is nothing "better" about the dodge truck bodywork, that is for sure. I liked the interiors and my truck has been reliable, but its not worth cr#p if you want to sell it with rust. I would be looking at 2 new door shells + a tailgate + all the labor and painting, so it kills the resale value.

Some of the Fords had problems not with the body itself, but bolt on components like front and rear bumpers and the front valance. I have seen a 2003 F250 where the front valance was rusted so bad you could pass a football through the holes.

 

[Builder]

Builder, I don't know what powers your gauge cluster, but it is very common now for the gauges to be motors powered by PWM. Since the technology is not a whole lot different to what is used in the PCM which actually runs the engine (digital) I am more concerned with what the gauges look like as opposed to the technology behind them. The GMC Jimmy's and other vehicles of that era and some of the modern honda's with the bar graph readouts and digital numerals drive me nuts by comparison. For me a gauge does not need to be analog, it just need to look analog.

The reason why things are done this way is to permit the system to work in both metric and imperial units by changing a code selection and in some markets the actual faceplate with the inscriptions (I know that in germany certain speeds are marked bolder since they are common speed limits).

There is no simple way to do this with true analog instruments other than change out the faceplate (which would be required, whether the law required it or not if a different unit is used). And analog instruments do not have the same diagnostic capabilities either.

I don't know how the 2007 GMC instruments work, but have been looking at learning to write code for Freescale micro processors and the demo board I bought happened to be for a complete instrument cluster...

Yes, the bar graph GM gauges from the 80's-90's were cooky.

But i'm talking 200 and up era trucks. Most of my GMC are measured the old reliable way with sending units and proportional gauges wired to them. I've read some articles about Ford transmission gauges run by the PCM moving up to overheat positions so rapidly that you don't have the chance to respond.
Transmission Temperature Gauge JUMPS to red - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
Transmision "check gauge" light and temperature gauge problem - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
Trans Temp Gauge Pegged to Red - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

What happens is the dummy gauge moves up rapidly and by then it's too late. Fords have senders like GM, but more of the GM gauges are like big rig gauges that actually read the sender. From how I understand it, the sender in a Ford sends information to a PCM/ECM, etc. If the trans fluid temps become hot it's sent to the gauge and the gauge responds more like a dummy light-it jumps to red quickly.

In my GMC, the trans temp gauge moves exactly like my IH gauges, slowly & accurately, not jumpy. Might not be a bad idea to add a trans temp gauge as a backup on your Ford.

 

[westcliffe01]

The only way to know the truth here would be to test the thermocouples in oil and see how they are calibrated. Installed location, fluid level all have an impact. And in the case of the digital gauges, software is also an issue. So far, mine behave like regular gauges. It sure takes much longer to lift the needle since I got back to MI... I had a Nissan where the water temperature sender was mounted high on the head. If I lost 2 quarts of coolant, i was no longer immersed in coolant but was well enough isolated from the mount to not sense the temperature of the block. So the temperature would first drop and only rise when steam was generated. It wasn't the fault of the sender or gauge, just bad placement.

Yes, the bar graph GM gauges from the 80's-90's were cooky.

But i'm talking 200 and up era trucks. Most of my GMC are measured the old reliable way with sending units and proportional gauges wired to them. I've read some articles about Ford transmission gauges run by the PCM moving up to overheat positions so rapidly that you don't have the chance to respond.
Transmission Temperature Gauge JUMPS to red - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums
Transmision "check gauge" light and temperature gauge problem - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
Trans Temp Gauge Pegged to Red - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

What happens is the dummy gauge moves up rapidly and by then it's too late. Fords have senders like GM, but more of the GM gauges are like big rig gauges that actually read the sender. From how I understand it, the sender in a Ford sends information to a PCM/ECM, etc. If the trans fluid temps become hot it's sent to the gauge and the gauge responds more like a dummy light-it jumps to red quickly.

In my GMC, the trans temp gauge moves exactly like my IH gauges, slowly & accurately, not jumpy. Might not be a bad idea to add a trans temp gauge as a backup on your Ford.

 

[westcliffe01]

First link was for a defective sender in the transmission. Open circuit/short circuit will get a severe reaction on the gauge for sure..... Had no damage to his transmission, but truck went into limp mode.

Second link the same, faulty transmission temperature sender.

3rd link, same fault, defective temperature sender.

All the other speculation regarding how the gauges work was a bunch of guessing - no facts.

In none of the cases did the transmission actually overheat.

I work in automotive and it is amazing that buyers expect a sending unit to cost less than a $. No wonder we have so many failing in service.

 

[Builder]

First link was for a defective sender in the transmission. Open circuit/short circuit will get a severe reaction on the gauge for sure..... Had no damage to his transmission, but truck went into limp mode.

Second link the same, faulty transmission temperature sender.

3rd link, same fault, defective temperature sender.

All the other speculation regarding how the gauges work was a bunch of guessing - no facts.

In none of the cases did the transmission actually overheat.

I work in automotive and it is amazing that buyers expect a sending unit to cost less than a $. No wonder we have so many failing in service.

The reason I know some of the ford gauges, in particular the trans temp sender is an idiot gauge is because I read it on a Ford tech board back in late '06 when I was deciding between a ford 6L and a GM HD Dmax. A Ford tech had pointed out that the trans temp gauge (and other gauges) were not hooked directly to the sender like GM gauges were.

 

[westcliffe01]

No microprocessor controlled device has the display connected directly to the sender. That does NOT mean that the value displayed is not proportional to the value at the sender, which is what you are implying.
I guess every page I print in my laserjet must be garbage since the printer is not directly connected to my LCD display if I follow the same logic...

All one needs is a heater (hot plate) a stainless soup bowl, the appropriate fluid, the sending unit to be tested and an independently verified thermometer to test the calibration. If you have a scan tool, you may be able to read the digital value as processed by the microprocessor and compare this to your verified thermometer. The fact is that the gauges don't have calibrated markings and I think that it has been "dumbed down" for the consumer. That does not mean that the PCM does not know what the temperature is or that the display is not proportional. I also thought this thread was about a 2009 model year, not an 06. There was a significant facelift in 08 so much may have changed, but the principles stay the same.

My chevy Cobalt, for instance has no gauge for coolant temperature at all. If you want to know, you have to bring up "coolant temperature" on the multi function display and it is then displayed in degrees. I know for sure that the instrument cluster in that car and the predecessor the cavalier are all digital, since there is only a CAN connection to the cluster.

The reason I know some of the ford gauges, in particular the trans temp sender is an idiot gauge is because I read it on a Ford tech board back in late '06 when I was deciding between a ford 6L and a GM HD Dmax. A Ford tech had pointed out that the trans temp gauge (and other gauges) were not hooked directly to the sender like GM gauges were.

 

[Dargo]

First link was for a defective sender in the transmission. Open circuit/short circuit will get a severe reaction on the gauge for sure..... Had no damage to his transmission, but truck went into limp mode.

Second link the same, faulty transmission temperature sender.

3rd link, same fault, defective temperature sender.

All the other speculation regarding how the gauges work was a bunch of guessing - no facts.

In none of the cases did the transmission actually overheat.

I work in automotive and it is amazing that buyers expect a sending unit to cost less than a $. No wonder we have so many failing in service.

From working in the business of seeing automotive claims every day, it's amazing the wild stories I hear from some people on what they believe vs. actual statistics. There is also a wide disparity between what is expected by people uneducated in claim actuarials vs. what they believe to be fact. Many times I've seen the "internet mechanic" sit around at lunch and tell everyone what is wrong with their car when it flies in the face of logic, data collected by the manufacturers and tens of thousands of actual failure data. Oh well, some "stories" can be more interesting than yesterday's game scores. And, some of the biggest story tellers end up feeling more important and better about themselves after being the internet mechanic. Until they cause problems with techs actually fixing the problems I figure "oh well...". Most all the time their "followers" generally wonder away over time and having acted on bad advice has cost them money and inconvenience.

 

[MossRoad]

Thread pruned again.

No PMs sent as there were too many to count.

This was round 2 of pruning, folks. Please leave the personal comments out or the thread will be closed.