Lawsuit regarding E15

[Coyote machine]

Those who claim that E10 fuel is OK for all modern engines, and that gaskets have been suited to this type of fuel for 20 years are seriously misinformed.
Boats with outboard 2 stroke engines are just one of many examples of engines not suited to ethanol at 10%. Cars and trucks use a sealed system which controls emissions and does not allow outside air into the fuel mix except at point of combustion. Boat fuel tanks use an OPEN system with a vent on the side of the hull which allows for pressure in the tank to equalize, thus allowing outside air into the tank where its moisture can mix with the E10 and create phase separation. Then the ethanol looses its octane level and the added water settles on the tank bottom, to later be sucked into carbs or injectors, neither of which is suited nor designed to run on a mix of water and some fuel. Marine tanks have been made out of aluminum, steel, various plastics etc. Water, (in a salt environment) for example, makes for a great environment for electrolysis to occur, thus aluminum tanks often corrode from the inside out, and often most of the boat needs to be dismantled to replace the faulty tank - at great expense and possible risk associated with removing a gas tank built into the boat and intended to live for most of the boat's life without having to be replaced. Newer engines are designed to handle E10 and specifically state that any more than 10% will VOID the manufacturer's warranty. No boat engine 2 or 4 stroke to date is designed to run on E15, to my knowledge.
Old boats with newer four stroke engines, required because of states outlawing two strokes on many waterways, are prone to failing fuel lines not made to E10 specs as well as fuel sender gaskets disintegration, etc.
Lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed eaters are all prone to E10 damage too. Storing fuel for more than a few weeks is a real problem for these engines. Now even Stihl and Echo make their own oils for their 2 stroke engines with an ethanol additive blended into the oil for the gas mix with E10.
Many repair shops for chainsaws, etc. recommend to mix the oil for a two stroke with the highest octane gas available to reduce the chance of lower octane problems with the E10 breakdown over several weeks time. They also say to take any unused gas mix and add it to one's car or truck where it can be burned without causing any problems due to it being diluted in a bigger tank and closed system.
E15 will just exacerbate the above mentioned problems in the marine industry, and to a lesser degree to the auto motive and small engine realm.

 

[ModMech]

One of the replies in the link Dan posted says,


Anybody else experience this ?

I can't say it is a 10% reduction in MPG with E10, but at least an 8% reduction using E10 + (winter formulation) in the Twin Cities metro area on the following:

1989 Volvo 244 & 245
1993 Crown Vic
1995 Volvo 960
1997 Windstar
1999 F-150 4.6L
1999 Crown vic
1999 Expy
2002 E-150 4.6L
2004 Freestar
2004 Grand Marquis
2007 Edge

Those are the vehicles I have (or had) access to complete mileage histories, every gallon used over at least a year and the mileage at which the fuel was added. Winter mileage was always somewhat lower but because we had the ability to fuel with either E10 or Neat Gas and recorded which, you CAN SEE a difference at any time of the year.

I would add that we can tell almost exactly when a station transitions from E10 to E10+ (winter blend) by the drop in range per tank... immediately.

 

[two_bit_score]

Agreed, we need alternatives. We do rely too much on foreign oil, but how much from the middle east was imported?

I don't want to get into why we (USA) are in the middle east, this topic is about E-15.

Well, middele east, canada,mexico, wherever, doesn't really matter to me that much. I think we spend too much on foreign oil (middle east especially) and too much on subsidizing ethanol.

>>David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.

Mr. Pimentel concluded that "abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuels amounts to unsustainable subsidized food burning". <<

Ethanol

I'm not vouching for everythig on that site but they seem to have a valid point there.

And they say our government is subsidizing ethanol to the tune of a $$BILLION$$ a year. That's tooooooo dang much, for me.

What are we doing about natural gas? Why has oone Pickins had so much lip service and not enough action in getting the Pickins Plan passed by Congress?

 

[Ken45101]

Why has Boone Pickins had so much lip service and not enough action in getting the Pickins Plan passed by Congress?

Probably because he hasn't greased the right palms?

Or maybe because his plans are only based on making more money for himself and has nothing to do with the good of the country? It seems that most of his plans have some hidden agenda that will make him more billions and the public benefits may be vapor.

Ken

 

[tulenutn2o]

Some of the naysayers of the benefits of alcohol fuels ought to do a little research on Brazil's ethanol industry. Again, no issues over the years here, of course, I mow the grass weekly too. My boat(ib/ob) runs a tank at a time, no issues. Motorcycles, no issues( Nothing lasts forever so carb cleaning and rebuild after 10 years does not count in my book). G0-cart-fine, pit bike-fine. 41 ford runs just fine. Just a note: since this fuel is splash blended, maybe your problems are from local blenders/ excesses? E85 is guaranteed at 70% min. E10.E15 really don't care what happens as long as I can get the E85. Love that stuff.

 

[ModMech]

The biggest problem isn't that Ethanol blends are bad for EVERY engine, but for *some* fuel systems and the consumer has no way to know for sure.... and no recourse if they are affected.

My point isn't that Biofuel is bad, my point and that of others is it is OUR CHOICE to use it or not, but since when does big Agribusiness or Goverment care about the citizens and what is right or what we want? That's not ever a factor in policy.

 

[davygp38]

The biggest problem isn't that Ethanol blends are bad for EVERY engine, but for *some* fuel systems and the consumer has no way to know for sure.... and no recourse if they are affected.

My point isn't that Biofuel is bad, my point and that of others is it is OUR CHOICE to use it or not, but since when does big Agribusiness or Government care about the citizens and what is right or what we want? That's not ever a factor in policy.

Too quote my Drill Sergent " It's a simple case of mind over matter, I don't mind, and you don't matter."

 

[HayDR]

Why? Been burning for many, many years and absolutely no problems. Last vehicle(94 ranger, 250k I actually ran as high as 30%. I have converted to E85 in my race car and Old musclecar. Great low cost alternative to other fuels. 15% doesn't bother me a bit.

This fight should be do we use corn or other more efficient crops to make Ethanol. Sugar Cane and sugar beats are more efficient crops to make Ethanol out of. The E15 increases the corn price artificially and will change the beef cattle industry back to the 1950's grass fed beef situation. This will double the price of beef in the USA. This is purely a political decision & buying votes.

 

[dcyrilc]

This fight should be do we use corn or other more efficient crops to make Ethanol. Sugar Cane and sugar beats are more efficient crops to make Ethanol out of. The E15 increases the corn price artificially and will change the beef cattle industry back to the 1950's grass fed beef situation. This will double the price of beef in the USA. This is purely a political decision & buying votes.

Other than the price increase, that wouldn't be a bad thing. The beef would be much healthier for us to eat. We raise grass fed cattle and I have no issues selling everything I raise due to the fact that the beef is much healthier than what the stores sell.

 

[tulenutn2o]

Other than the price increase, that wouldn't be a bad thing. The beef would be much healthier for us to eat. We raise grass fed cattle and I have no issues selling everything I raise due to the fact that the beef is much healthier than what the stores sell.

You could be onto something here.. If price were higher AND the beef healthier, maybe the obesity rate would start to taper off and health costs go down, etc. Something to think about.