Preventing tractor back flip

   / Preventing tractor back flip #221  
Hmmm...I wonder if the tires can move backward but not (not) rotate backwards? Easy to think of situations where tires move but do not rotate: get your pre-anti-lock-brake vehicle up to speed, lock the brakes...skid--each tire (indeed, the whole vehicle) moves but none of the tires rotate ...just sayin'

It's not even necessary for them to skid, but that is one way it could happen.

The action of the free standing tractor tipping backwards, should the brakes be on, by itself necessitates the rear tires "rolling" backwards. Of course when the brakes are on you get a 1:1 ratio of tractor tip to tire rollback. Whether or not we have a 1:1 ratio during the pulling exercise depends on the gear ratios and the drawbar-length-from-axle to tire-radius ratio.

Either way they MUST come backwards if the tractor lifts it's nose while connected to an immovable load with any normally expected chain angle (I don't think anybody here disputes the tractor being able to raise its nose at least at first). The geometry simply requires it, and no amount of other factors can override that fact.

xtn
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #222  
Milkman has it right. Many of you are arguing semantics.

There is rotational torque on the tires. The weight on the front end counteracts the drawbar torque force. Lowering the drawbar gives it a much better vantage point but can still be overcome.

I've seen inertia mentioned but not yet acceleration. If you accelerate the mass of the front end up fast enough, the inertia can carry it past the point of balance even considering the tires loosing traction (friction) at some point.

There are many ways to consider this, some with forces static and some with them dynamic. But, tell an old timer who's filled his seat of his pants with crap at the point of balance that it won't tip.

PS...you Canada guys can't get it right because you spell center and tires wrong...:D:D:D
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #223  
But the physics show, with a slow steady pull, that it cannot happen. When you throw clutchpopping, jerking, running starts, and hills into the mix, its a crap-shoot. Anything can happen. And wether the tractor can attain enough momentum to go over depends on how hard you jerk, how hard you pop the clutch, how fast the running start is, and how steep the hill is.
/QUOTE]

OK, physics says it can't happen. But it does happen on the flat and level without all the drastic actions mentioned above.:thumbsup:

Maybe the Physics needs a new model to work with or maybe a new approach or maybe just a new force diagram with the actual forces involved??:D:D
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #224  
But the physics show, with a slow steady pull, that it cannot happen. When you throw clutchpopping, jerking, running starts, and hills into the mix, its a crap-shoot. Anything can happen. And wether the tractor can attain enough momentum to go over depends on how hard you jerk, how hard you pop the clutch, how fast the running start is, and how steep the hill is.
/QUOTE]

OK, physics says it can't happen. But it does happen on the flat and level without all the drastic actions mentioned above.:thumbsup:

Maybe the Physics needs a new model to work with or maybe a new approach or maybe just a new force diagram with the actual forces involved??:D:D

Have you ever witnessed it happen? On level ground, with a slow and steady pull, and a drawbar mounted below the axle?
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #225  
But the physics show, with a slow steady pull, that it cannot happen. When you throw clutchpopping, jerking, running starts, and hills into the mix, its a crap-shoot. Anything can happen. And wether the tractor can attain enough momentum to go over depends on how hard you jerk, how hard you pop the clutch, how fast the running start is, and how steep the hill is.
/QUOTE]

OK, physics says it can't happen. But it does happen on the flat and level without all the drastic actions mentioned above.:thumbsup:

Maybe the Physics needs a new model to work with or maybe a new approach or maybe just a new force diagram with the actual forces involved??:D:D

I think you are right here, and by the way your post #193 made sense to me.

Do any of the theoretical physics models include resonance conditions in the system?

Do any of the theoretical physics models include the dynamics of tire flex and other forms of stored energy in the system which may build up and be rapidly released?

Do any of the theoretical physics models include the effect of a tall 350 lb operator leaning backwards rapidly while sneezing and pulling back on the steering wheel while the front end is in the air?

Do any of the theoretical physics models consider the forces from a high speed headwind gust which catches the underside of the ROPS mounted canopy and tractor belly while the front end is off the ground?

Do any of the theoretical physics models include the effect that the ground is soft and the drawbar connection point pushes into the ground as the tractor flips over backwards?

Do any of the theoretical physics models include the effect that the turbocharged tractor engine exhaust pipe opening is elevated and facing forwards and therefore producing thrust which tends to cause the tractor to flip over backwards? (assume also that the engine air intake and radiator cooling airflow further enhance the effect).

Do any of the theoretical physics models include the situation where the rear tires dig holes as the spin which lowers the rear of the tractor and moves it backwards slightly and then traction increases instantly when a couple of thousand pounds of liquid ballast in the rear tires that had been sloshing around and became momentarily unweighted suddenly became fully weighted and the tires stopped spinning and the tractor rotated and did a back flip?

Do any of the theoretical physics models include the effects of radiation pressure from forward facing high powered lights with reflectors?

Do any of the theoretical physics models consider what happens when the front tires on a 4wd tractor get coated in 500 lbs of thick heavy mud and then the front end of the tractor lifts into the air and then as the front tires are spinning rapidly in the air all of the mud is released and thrown at high speed downwards and out in front of the tractor?

Do any of the theoretical physics models consider the effects of unequal and rapid variations in traction between the two rear tires when the rear tires/wheels are set for maximum tread width?

:laughing::laughing:
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #226  
Yes, but is there anything more memorable than listening to a P51 idleing in its unique way on the runway, and when the pilot puts the spurs to it, that heart vibrating, earthshaking sound, and to watch it lift off and climb so fast and so vertical?. It is something I will never forget. It is no jet, but just about the culmination of piston powered aircraft if you ask me.

James K0UA

I met a guy once that put an Allison V-1710 into a reconditioned PT boat, not sure how they were originally powered but the Allison did the trick
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #227  
I met a guy once that put an Allison V-1710 into a reconditioned PT boat, not sure how they were originally powered but the Allison did the trick

They were powered with 3 marine versions of the V-12 Packard aircraft engine. Horsepower ranged from 1200 to 1850 each.

Bruce
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #228  
But the physics show, with a slow steady pull, that it cannot happen. When you throw clutchpopping, jerking, running starts, and hills into the mix, its a crap-shoot. Anything can happen. And wether the tractor can attain enough momentum to go over depends on how hard you jerk, how hard you pop the clutch, how fast the running start is, and how steep the hill is.
/QUOTE]

[[OK, physics says it can't happen. But it does happen on the flat and level without all the drastic actions mentioned above.]]:thumbsup:

Maybe the Physics needs a new model to work with or maybe a new approach or maybe just a new force diagram with the actual forces involved??:D:D
Surely there is something more documented than "It happened to Uncle Harry, God rest his soul". Then, all it would take is a look at the drawbar to see why.
larry
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #229  
Surely there is something more documented than "It happened to Uncle Harry, God rest his soul". Then, all it would take is a look at the drawbar to see why.
larry

Agreed:thumbsup:
 
   / Preventing tractor back flip #230  
I met a guy once that put an Allison V-1710 into a reconditioned PT boat, not sure how they were originally powered but the Allison did the trick

At least some had a Packard V-12 or V-16...1200 HP, IIRC
 

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